I haven’t read Shaun Groves in awhile because I am not able to correctly operate my feedreader, it seems. But then I had people coming over here from Shaun’s (Hi! People from Shaun’s!) and so I ambled back over to check it out again.
And I see that Shaun is asking about the ethics of buying an iPhone.
No, buying a $600 non-neccessity like an iPhone is not the best decision for a Christian to make when considering how many needs that cash could meet. But, yes, I make the same sort of bad decision every day.
Is this Christians Judging Christians Week? Did I miss something? I guess even if Matthew Stark gets his way and the Church “gets her voice back”, She probably shouldn’t use that voice to talk on an iPhone.
I’ve read Rich Christians In An Age Of Hunger, so this whole concept of financial guilt is not new to me. Hey, I’m a Mennonite. We’re a shirts-off-our-backs kind of people. But I’m not here to give some sort of Holiness Resume where I talk about recycling my plastic grocery bags and knitting sweaters out of dog hair.
I’m here to talk about how easy it is for someone to say “how you earn and spend your money is not necessary, but how I earn and spend my money is essential to the kingdom.”
Shaun is a professional minister. He gets his money from ministry. He makes Christian music and sells it. He is, in effect, in the Jesus Business. I know a lot of people in the Jesus Business, and I’m glad that they were called to that work. I’ve written about this before and I’ll write about it again, I’m sure. Because it’s important. VERY IMPORTANT.
Dear People In the Jesus Business:
There is One Body with Many Parts. Not all of us are called to the Jesus Business. We earn and spend our money and time in different ways. And that’s okay with the Lord. So it had better be okay with you.
I make my money in marketing. It’s my job to convince people to buy books without words in them. For a long time I thought that was the least necessary item in the world. Then I became a manager in a company that made those books. I saw artists get checks for the pictures they drew which graced the covers of the books. My boss went to China and talked about the thousands of Chinese who no longer lived in poverty because they worked at the factory that made those books. I saw 75 people at my company have jobs paid for by those books. I saw people pay their tithe, their children’s tuition to DCA and even buy Shaun Groves CDs with money they earned at that job. I also saw people use those blank books to take sermon notes preached by their pastors and to write their daily prayer devotions.
I tried to tell Shaun that for every product made, there are at least four people employed globally. He responded to me thusly:
1.ME: iPhones are made by people. People in Taiwan who need jobs. If we don’t buy an iPhone for $600 dollars a lot of people in Taiwan won’t be able to feed their families.
Johns have sex with women in the red light district of Amsterdam 24 hours a day…legally. If they don’t these women won’t have jobs. Porshe employs tens of thousands of people, if we stop buying their 100K SUV those people will lose their jobs. Joel Osteen employees dozens (if not hundreds), so if we stop buying his theologically erroneous books and watching his tv show those people will lose jobs. I understand the point, but the logic breaks down when applied everywhere. (Note: I’m not saying iPhones are equivalent to tricks, luxury cars or bad theology.)
Well, I say let’s not apply the logic everywhere. The iPhone is not a hooker. (Although I can see how one might be confused by use of the term “call girl”.)
Products themselves are not good or bad. That is a form of idolatry.
The fact of the matter is that those of us not directly in the Jesus Business find other ways to make our money. We fund our own ministries with secular jobs, and also fund the ministries of those who work directly in church-related business. It just so happens that for many years the bulk of my family’s money has come directly from the cell-phone business. Here’s the thing: I won’t complain about the non-necessity of Christian Music CDs if you don’t complain about the non-necessity of expensive phones.
Hello. *waves* I am a people on Shaun’s blog.
Off topic: I enjoy your flickr photos. I had previously heard of tilt shift lenses, but I had no idea of the actual effect. Are those pictures of miniatures or does it just look that way? Very interesting either way.
See ya round the blogosphere.
I judge thy post theologically sound.
STAMP!
(That was the Father Thomas stamp of approval.)
I hate to say this, Kat, but after reading the article on Shaun’s blog, I think you’re being overly defensive. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think he was saying it is wrong to buy an iPhone, but just asking the question. He might have just as easily used cable TV, or ice cream, or video game consoles as an example. I know I spend way too much money on those things, while I don’t own an iPhone.
But I could be wrong. BTW, I’m Adam, and recently started reading your blog after recently starting to read NiT.
Well, I’m not claimed by the christians (and I’m ok with that, it’s cool), but in my studies, reflections and meditations, I’ve come to the conclusion that we all have our roles to play. I could give all my money and belongings to “the poor
,” but it’s doubtful if such a thing would be able to pull more than a single a person from poverty, and then I’d be poor so the net gain would be what exactly?
I help out the best I can, but I feel no guilt in enjoying the finer things in life that I’ve worked for.
I would ask Shaun if he wears nice clothes; or eats anything above the bare minimum to survive; does he have a nice house; does he own a car? Cable TV? Internet access??? Does he own books? A cellphone? A land-line phone? The list goes on and on. The reality is that the VAST majority of us (including those who technically live under the poverty line) buy plenty of non-necessities through out our lives.
The bottom line is that just giving money to the poor is nothing more than short term solution. The longer someone who is unable to feed their family is given a hand out, then the more dependent they become on that handout. The real way to break the cycle of poverty is to provide people living in poverty the tools to lift themselves out of poverty. The number one tool to do this is a job. Manufacture and distribution of products like the iPhone, a Porshe or even bad theology books create jobs.
I don’t think anyone would argue that the more people are spending money on products and services, the more the economy thrives. The more the economy thrives, the more poverty starts to loose it’s strangle hold on people.
Don’t get me wrong. I am not saying that we should have programs or donate money to help the poor. I give to very good causes that help the poor. Note that I said “help”, and not sustain. I am very picky about the charities that I donate to. I make sure that when I decide to donate to one, that decision is very well informed one. That’s what I would encourage everyone to do, research these charities. Find out which ones are using the money to build schools and create jobs and avoid the ones that just creating a cycle of dependence. After all, what’s the greatest sin? Not giving at all, or giving in a way that creates a cycle of dependence so you can continue to give without thinking about it?
Dolphin (and others interested), I would ask that you read my entire post and not just the bits excerpted here before drawing conclusion or coming up with questions to ask me. The tone is quiet different than what these bits represent. Though I don’t think I’ve misrepresented on purpose. It would be difficult to resay everything I’ve said on my blog this week over three posts about this subject.
Here’s what hasn’t been excerpted that is very important I think to understanding my motives and message on all this:
Post#1: I ask a question about how we come up with our theologies and church models. I asked if these things, created by us to a degree, are influenced by who we are and what we value. “A soldier and patriot creates her own theology/politics that validates her own nationalism and occupation. A skilled artist creates a theology/caste system of sorts that elevates his own creations and belittles others’.A business major creates a theology/church that must be as measurable and institutional as a corporation.” The idea being that we humans (me included) do not tend to interpret scripture in ways that contradict what we already believe to be true and in ways that contradict how we already live and what we already value. (btw, Katherine makes this point well by not liking a theology of finances goes against her family business…not that that’s the only reason she has to have her feathers ruffled…mine might be too if all I’d read was the post she excerpted.)
I then used the example of technology driven churches (jumbotrons, fog machines, laser lights, set designers on staff) being run by friends of mine who blog frequently about their gadgets and other cool expensive things. Could it be, I asked, that these guys, these pastors and music ministers, now blogging about the iPhone have created the kind of church where they minister in part because it lines up with what they value outside of church, how they live outside of church? A technophile begats a technology saturated church? THAT’S THE FIRST MENTIO OF THE iPHONE. IT WAS NOT THE SUBJECT OF THE POST, BUT ONE ITEM MENTIONED IN ONE EXAMPLE IN ONE POST.
But the comments on that post focussed on the iPhone example and not the greater questions being asked. Interesting.
Post #2: I tried to sooth the iPhone fanatics by making the same point using an example from my own life. Maybe the heat was from coming across judgmental of others, I thought. So I used myself as the example of someone creating a theology that matches their values and lifestyle. And asked why the iPhone example had riled everyone up when I’m obviously saying we ALL have this tendency to recreate church and God in our own image…not just SOME pstors/iPhone lovers.
Again, the comments were all about the iPhone and not the greater point. Interesting.
Post #3: I GAVE UP! I hadn’t intended to make moral judgments about a freaking phone! That was never my point but, because I hadn’t communicated clearly or because I’d appeared to tip the sacred Apple cow – I don’t know – my readers kept wanting to put words in my mouth. They were asking me questions like “how’s an iPhone different from buying jeans – you don’t those – you already have a pair?” Well, I’d never said it was wrong to own a phone. I merely pointed out that some friends of mine who work at technology driven churches are giddy about the iPhone, are giddy about every new thing on the market, and wondered out loud if that isn’t another example of how we ALL allow out own lifestyle and values to affect our theology or guide our preference in church models. But since you insist…
So I posted that explanation and then said, basically “Fine, if you want a moral judgment on iPhones here it goes…” And I gave two answers (NOT THE ONE KATHERINE QUOTES ALONE HERE): First I said “Yes” I should “spend money and time and energy on myself [even] if those resources could be spent to meet real needs for others.” I explained that that’s how I live. I buy non-essentials all the time. I gave examples.
Then, in closing, I also said “No” MIGHT be the right answer – I don’t know – but it’s a hard answer to live. It’s not practical.
Then I said…”If millions of us lived “no” than the amount of sacrifice required of each of us would be less – maybe. Maybe then “no” would be more practical, or at least less weird and uncomfortable. So, though I’ve never said it before I’ll say it now: No, buying a $600 non-neccessity like an iPhone is not the best decision for a Christian to make when considering how many needs that cash could meet. But, yes, I make the same sort of bad decision every day. So what do we do about it? While you ponder, I need to go call a baby sitter so I can spend $40 on child care and at least $30 on dinner for two tonight.”
There’s the context Katherine’s post didn’t include…and, again, no fault of hers. So much context is a lot to read and boring posting. But it’s fair to allow me to post it here in the comments so thanks for that opportunity Katherine.
If you are upset about the mere suggestion, katherine, that buying an expensive cellphone is not a good decision (and all it is is a suggestion) and if you’re upset because you make money from cell phones, then, ironically, you bring this discussion full circle perhaps. Because all this discussion of iPhones never began with the iPhone, but instead with the idea that we humans – ALL OF US – have a hard time swallowing ideas that harm us, that contradict how we live – whether those ideas are wrong or right – we can’t stand them even existing. Point made by you?
As far as me making money from music. I made $38,000 last year playing shows for free at which I ask my audience to save a child from poverty from Compassion International. We’ve saved 10081 children from poverty this way in the last 12 months. Unsolicited donations is how I make my money…similar to how Paul finances his missionary journeys. I don’s have a record company. I make about $3000 of my salary came from radio play left over from the label days. Another $7000 or so came from CD sales at shows (you get a CD free if you sponsor a child though) So, yes, I make money from CDs, non-essentials, and I too rationalize this by doing most of what I do for free and urging my fans to save a life instead of buying a piece of silicon.
I’m not above reproach on all this Katherine, like you’ve pointed out. But I am wrestling daily with figuring how much is enough and how to best serve the poor and the church and my family at the same time. These posts were about those questions, not an iPhone. Thanks for chance to speak for myself.
And I enjoy reading your blog.
-Shaun
shaunfanmail@bellsouth.net
Sorry, the link to POST #3 was missing.
THIS IS ON THE COMMENTS OF MY MOST RECENT POST BUT I THOUGHT IT FAIR TO POST IT HERE AS WELL:
Katherine said…
My husband has earned his living for many years from cell phone apps and accessories.
They may all seem “unnecessary” to you, but I assure you that those things enable us to have our lifestyle. That lifestyle includes a healthy dose of giving back to our communities in many ways, both in money and time. We consider ourselves tentmaker ministers in that we are able to support our lifestyle ministries without passing the hat. We earn our keep for 60 hours a week and then spend the rest of the time–time we’ve earned–toiling in the fields of the Lord.
Katherine, thanks for the comment. Before I address this statement (which is simlar to an earlier one you made about every iPhone bought helping out at least four people who make them and sell them), let me be very clear upfront: I DO NOT THINK CELL PHONES OR IPHONE ARE EVIL, SINFUL OR WRONG.
That said, just for the sake of discussion and to make one point with huge ramifications (I think)…
Your argument seems to go like this, if I’m reading you right: “Because I do good things with the money I make, the way I make my money should not be questioned (or the way I make money is “good” because I do good with the money earned from my work.)”
If that is the argument it has huge consequences for the way we all view “good” and “evil” doesn’t it? John Gotti (mob boss) did lots of good with his ill-gotten gains. Porn King Hugh Hefner is quite the philanthropist. And yea, those guys aren’t necessarily Christians so let’s use Osteen again. Joel Osteen does lot of good with money made from preaching a prosperity theology. Or maybe you don’t like Falwel. Falwel, for all his flaws (we all gott’em) promoted adoption, crisis pregnancy centers, etc with his cash.
Do the ends justify the means in these cases?
I’m not saying your family cell phone business is bad. What I’m saying is you can’t call it good just because you are an excellent steward of the money made from it. If you do, you have to apply that logic to everyone at all times. You have to call the mobster, the pimp, the drug dealer’s work “good” as well IF they do good with the money earned.
Make sense?
So, while I’M NOT CASTIGATING THOSE WHO BUY AN iPHONE OR MANUFACTURE THEM, I am saying it’s OK to discuss the ethics of our buying habits regardless of the “good” done by those who profit from these products. Fair?
Shaun,
Reading your comments here I’m having difficulty figuring out exactly what point you ARE trying to make because you appear to be drifting from one to another to another…
On the first point you bring up we completely agree. For most people, religion is simply a tool to reinforce that which they already believe 90% of the time. I’ve often worded same thought thusly: “Religion comes from beliefs, not beliefs from religion.” It’s much easier to hold your beliefs (especially but certainly not limited to the really bad ones) when you convince yourself that an almighty god holds them too. While I agree on that point, I’m not 100% sure how that ties into the iPhone topic.
As for your second point, I have read and re-read but it still sounds incredibly judgmental and inaccurate to me. What you’re saying, as I read it, is that yes you think it’s sinful (or “not a good decision” which equals “sinful”) to buy an iPhone (or any non-necessity) but you buy things you don’t need as well, so it’s just impractical to not live in sin, so don’t worry about it. If you feel doing something is wrong, yet you knowingly continue doing so, what does that make you? What many of the rest of us are trying to say is that maybe buying a luxury item isn’t sinful after all. Maybe it’s even a good idea sometimes.
And I think you are COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY off base in your interpretation of Kat’s point. Nowhere have I read where Kat makes a statement that even remotely reads as “the way I make money is “good” because I do good with the money earned from my work.” As I read her, she is suggesting that, if one’s reason for being is to get others out of poverty, integrating into society is often the best way to do that. If we isolate ourselves from society, only purchasing the bare minimum we need to survive, we make it difficult to help anyone. By engaging in the economy, in what one can arguably refer to as mutual giving (I’ll give you money and you’ll give me a good or service that I need and the other way around), we allow ourselves to help far more people (not to mention pushing forward the evolution of the human race, but that’s another topic all together). You cite that you’ve “saved 10081 children from poverty” by performing concerts. If all of your audiences had decided that concerts were something they didn’t need to survive and therefore chose not to engage in society and attend, how many children would you have saved?
You can’t say that it’s a bad idea for a Christian to buy an iPhone and then turn around and say there’s nothing wrong with buying an iPhone. You’re contradicting yourself, and whether you realize or not, the deeper you go trying to dig yourself out of your own contradiction, the more judgemental you are making yourself sound.
Welcome, Cpt.crayon & Adam. Sorry to pull you in on one of the more serious ones…but glad to have you here nevertheless.
Katherine makes this point well by not liking a theology of finances goes against her family business…
Beg pardon, but that’s not the case at all. “Theology of finances” is not what you’re talking about. You’re talking about the idolatry so many invest in various permutations of the social gospel.
I have a serious problem with that, and my erstwhile connection with the cell phone business has naught to do with it.
In fact “Theology of Finances” is a creepy term, as far as I can tell. It implies that finances are a type of god, the study of which is worthwhile.
——
f you are upset about the mere suggestion, katherine, that buying an expensive cellphone is not a good decision (and all it is is a suggestion) and if you’re upset because you make money from cell phones, then, ironically, you bring this discussion full circle perhaps
I’m upset at the fact that Christians think themselves well-suited to pass judgement on the spending, lifestyles and habits of other Christians. You happened to be talking about cellphones. I’m trying to make the point that there is NO MORAL WRONG with the purchase of articles. Let me clarify for you , since you seem to have difficulty differentiating between ITEMS and HUMAN BEINGS, that buying an iPhone is not the same thing as spending an hour with a hooker. So please stop deriding the purchases of iPhones and SUVs as being the moral equivalent of the purchase of human flesh. It’s just silly on its face, Shaun. And I trust you know that, deep down.
I’m not saying your family cell phone business is bad. What I’m saying is you can’t call it good just because you are an excellent steward of the money made from it.
I’m not saying my family’s erstwhile cellphone business was bad OR good. I’m saying that it’s a logical fallacy to anthropomorphise inanimate objects and imbue them with moral characteristics. It’s a throwback to the legalism which says “Beer is Bad” and “Cross Pendants are Good.”
I’m not above reproach on all this Katherine, like you’ve pointed out.
I’m not here to bring reproach. Just another point of view.
I am wrestling daily with figuring how much is enough and how to best serve the poor and the church and my family at the same time.
I can tell you’re wrestling. No one writes so many words without having thought the thing through to an intensive degree.
I just think perhaps it’s better to work out some things in quiet humility, fear and trembling instead of attempting to make generalised pronouncements which may sometimes miss the mark, cause misunderstanding and do a disservice to the Church.
Katherine, I understand everything you’ve written. I’ve done my best to explain what I’ve written and why. I can’t say any more but “thank you” for pushing me to think things through better than I have.
I think our misunderstanding can mostly be blamed for my inability to put thoughts still in formation into words. I haven’t communicated all that well. My apologies for that.
Dolphin, I do believe the real God so many of us are trying to get through, the One under layers of history and words and tradition, is a God that is not constructed by men. His truth often, if not most of the time, does contradict our own natural human values and lifestyles. He has moved me to do things I don’t want to do, to abandon things I’m naturally drawn to, to live people I naturally dislike, and be someone much of me doesn’t want to be. The result is that I’m either psychotic (an atheist might say), a genetic misfire (an evolutionary biologist might say), a sadist (a therapist might say) or I am evidence – a small small piece – that perhaps there’s a personal God out there interacting with me in a way that a nameless force or a gene or a scientific rationalization cannot. I wanted to explain this so no one gets the idea that my believing a love for technology (a healthy love) can influence once theology and methods of ministry is the same as saying everything about our theology and church is manufactured by humans and their loves. I believe in a God that is not man made and loves us in spite of our tendencies to recreate Him in our own image.
-SG
I meant to say “blamed on” not “blamed for”. Big difference.
Wait. Wait.
I was about to slip quietly back out of your life, Katherine, thankful for the good discussion and the things I now I have to ponder when I paused to check out your “About” page. See, I’m so impressed with that brain of yours and your vocabulary (earstwhile? naught? Who talks like that?) that I had to find out more about you. Is this Katherine person a journalist? A professor? A knitter of afghans? I had to know.
There, on the “About” page I read what seems, at a glance and to my feeble brain, to be a bit of a contradiction…
“I never liked Al Gore because he seemed to be the living embodiment of CCR’s Fortunate Son. Now I live in Tennessee and can’t escape the man. I do marvel that he has the kind of money to spend more on his utility bills than I make in a year. Do I notice a trend with politicians and flagrant spending? Yes! I do!”
How’s this not “judgmental?” Are you not, in this paragraph, one of those “Christians [who] think themselves well-suited to pass judgement on the spending, lifestyles and habits of other Christians?” And what do you castigate Al Gore for? His spending. And you don’t question whether it’s good or bad or how you personally should spend; you don’t confess your own poor spending habits. No, you make this “judgment” part of your profile page. Must really bug you to make sure everyone who wants to learn about who you are knows you don’t like Al Gore…because of how he spend his personal money. Where’s the “quiet humility” you ask from me? How is questioning the spending of one’s political representative not similar (the same?) as questioning the spending habits of religious leaders?
Anybody else find this a tad hypocritical…or maybe just a little entertaining?
Or am I being judgmental? I’m not sure what word means any more. I’m sure what you’ve said about Mr. Gore isn’t judgmental and what I’ve written while questioning how we ALL spend our money in light of the poverty problem is judgmental. But I’m not sure why. I guess I could use a definition.
You have to laugh, Katherine. That is an unfortunate paragraph to have on your blog in light of your comments to me.
In all seriousness, it has been a great discussion. I get that I need to communicate more clearly and think things through more completely before posting or else risk being misunderstood and hurtful. Point made. Thanks for that.
(earstwhile? naught? Who talks like that?)
I do. I’m strange, and I’ll admit it.
RE: The whole Al Gore thing…
I note you don’t quote the next sentence where I admit that I don’t have any money anyway, so in my humourous, self-deprecating writing style I pretty much said there what I say everywhere which is “each to his own.” Although it must not be clear, since you’re obviously prooftexting me to score points at this juncture.
How is questioning the spending of one’s political representative not similar (the same?) as questioning the spending habits of religious leaders?
If you are spending MY money–as a political representative assessing taxes through threat of force–I WILL demand an accounting. That’s responsible stewardship.
Likewise, if you are spending money on behalf of the Body of Christ, I think it’s right to demand an accounting.
BUT….
IF YOU ARE SPENDING YOUR PERSONAL MONEY IT IS YOUR PERSONAL BUSINESS AND NO ONE ELSE’S.
If you are a pastor who uses $600 of your salary to buy an iPhone, fair dinkum. If you are a pastor who uses $600 of the church’s money to buy an iPhone for the “church’s use”, then I think there’s room for question.
I love the way you talk. And the way you don’t back down from a great debate. Thanks for that.
Great points. Going away now to ponder some more.
-SG
AHH! That last comment was actually me – Shaun – on my road manager’s computer. Dang fangled technology. How’s that for fancy words?
So that’s not my picture either. I have better hair.
-SG
I do like this conversation, and I want to expound upon it a little bit more. However, I’m going to put the frame of reference on myself so that it’s clear that I’m not judging anyone else.
I don’t own an iPhone, and while I may own one someday, it won’t be anytime soon. However, I own an even more useless and expensive gadget: an Xbox 360. I saved up a lot of gift money and bought one. I play online with some friends, a couple of whom live out of state, but for the most part it is an entirely frivolous object.
Now, as a Christian I am called to be a good steward of the blessings that God has given to me, including financial blessings. Jesus did spend more of his ministry talking about money than anything else, so it’s really important to Him, and he knows our tendency to mismanage it.
The question is this: is buying a $500 video game console (not to mention games I buy, which I almost never pay full price for, but cost nonetheless) being a good steward of God’s blessings? Probably not the best idea for a Christian in the world when there are children dying of malaria for want of a $1 mosquito net, or some clean water.
Now, is anyone here going to castigate me for what I’ve done? Probably not, but even if someone does, they probably have their own plank in their eye to remove as well. And frankly, I don’t think that’s the point. I agree, Kat, that buying these objects is not sinful in and of itself. The content of certain games may not be wholesome, and some are quite profane, but video games are not the devils work anymore than rock ‘n roll is.
However, spending that money may be wrong. Buying something expensive that one can easily live without may not be good stewardship. I’ve been thinking about this for a little while now, way before Shaun blogged about the iPhone. Can I make that determination for anyone else? No. But I can make it for myself. And sometimes it may be important for someone who knows and loves me to help me see these blind spots.
Again, I may have totally misunderstood what Shaun was trying to say, and I didn’t read all three posts (when I read and responded, I only knew of the one). I don’t think it’s fair for anyone to say cell phones, SUV’s, expensive meals, big houses, etc. are bad in and of themselves. But I do think we need to constantly seek to discern whether we are managing our resources in the way that God calls us to do so.
Otherwise, we run the risk of adopting a theology that doesn’t challenge us, and one that rationalizes the things we are accustomed to. I’m not going to sell my Xbox today and give all the money to the poor, but I am going to think about the ways I ought to simplify my life and best help others. And I won’t rule out selling the Xbox sometime down the road.
I haven’t argued this point yet but it needs arguing. I have not made “determinations” for others, or told anyone what they should or should not purchase, or called any inanimate object bad, evil or the like.
I’m not being facetious when I ask this: Can someone please cite the sentence or sentences in which I have done any of these things.
I truly want to understand where I inadvertently communicated these ideas. I need to understand where I miscommunicated and make it right. Please help if you can.
I asked the question “Should I spend money and time and energy on myself if those resources could be spent to meet real needs for others?” Then I gave two answers, both “yes” and “no.
Yes, is how I currently live (How’s that for humble, Kat?)
No, is what I admit might be the better answer but I don’t know if it is because it’s such an impractical answer that begs all kinds of questions I don’t have answers to.
So, I gave no one answer. I don’t have one. I have two. And I don’t know which is correct. How can someone be telling others what is “right” or “wrong” when he admits to not knowing that answer himself?
I have not made “determinations” for others, or told anyone what they should or should not purchase, or called any inanimate object bad, evil or the like. … Can someone please cite the sentence or sentences in which I have done any of these things
Now, granted, that’s most likely me prooftexting you in the same way that I complained about you prooftexting me.
That may be entirely the case.
I suppose we’re having two discussions here, which are both in danger of veering off the central point and missing each other’s core argument entirely.
My Issue
I take issue with any Christian–especially Christians who make their living in various forms of ministry–telling other Christians how to make personal spending judgements.
This is a hot button topic for me, and goes back to several conversations I’ve had with my now-deceased father-in-law (a minister) and several friends in church work. I remember one conversation with a friend who worked on staff at my church complaining about how they (the church staff) weren’t able to get raises or better health benefits because people wouldn’t give enough to the church. That was in a year when I and my husband were each working two jobs to make ends meet. (No, we don’t have credit cards or other debt; yes we have only one car. Yes, we tithe.)
I’ve also had more than a few conversations with people who tell me I spend “too much” on books, markers, candles, ice cream and Sims 2 expansion packs. It’s very easy to look at someone else and pull out the “kids are starving in Outer Anywhereistan” argument to point splinters in the stewardship eye.
Leaving aside the money issue altogether, I’ve gotten to the place where I don’t appreciate any Christian making any type of value judgements against any other human being. It’s perfectly groovy (in my mind) to say “I think I spend too much on books.” It is NOT perfectly groovy (in my mind) to say “I think you spend too much on books.” Or “shouldn’t drink beer” or “shouldn’t play cards” or “shouldn’t…etc.”
I basically think that God is big enough to take care of His own business, and that includes the reproof of His children.
Your Issue
I gather as I read through your posts and these comments that perhaps you are merely trying to assess for yourself–and thinking aloud while you do–where that personal line IS in regard to your spending habits. Which, given the fact that you ARE in ministry means that you have quite a large common set to discuss. That’s a whole ball of wax about which I can see any person in ministry would be sensitive–the whole “Would Jesus Wear A Rolex” argument.
The Third Issue
What about how The Church spends her money? Well, I’m a Mennonite. That means that I’d just as soon everyone went to church in their own living rooms and sent all that big-church building money to the places that “need” it.
But I’m also getting older. I’m 37 now. As I’ve said elsewhere, i realise that what I consider necessary in worship isn’t always what others consider necessary. I like hymns and deep sermons. That doesn’t mean that choruses and sermons with tv clips aren’t any good. They just don’t meet my needs.
Likewise, I can see how some NEED the experience of corporate worship in a large church.
The Issue of Big Screen TVs in Church
Man, I used to rail on this. I thought there was nothing more wasteful than a church with a big-screen TV. In a world of homeless junkies and dying babies, what’s the point, right? Well, I have a chronic illness now. A few weeks ago I couldn’t sit in the pew–it was too uncomfortable. So I slinked out to the Narthex and sat on a comfy chair with a few others. And watched the service on the TV. And became incredibly blessed.
I also met several people who were incredibly blessed on a weekly basis by those closed circuit TVs, including a few homeless who, although welcome to be in the sanctuary, were uncomfortable worshipping in the sanctuary.
So the TVs I’ve criticised for taking bread out of the mouths of the homeless were actually bringing the Bread of Life directly to many homeless people.
Boy, did God put me in my place that day.
—–
So yeah, there’s a lot going on here.
Thank you for that brilliant summary of out discussion. Serves as a very useful map for me. Thanks. I have my bearing now.
YOUR ISSUE
Been there. Sorry you have to. I do not want to be yet another person like that in your life or anyone else’s. My apologies for communicating in such a way that made you feel for even a second that I am making a determination about the morality of your own spending. Sincerely sorry for that.
MY ISSUE
You’re exactly right. This is my issue. We’re both just getting to know each other here so you may not know my own story. Briefly, I didn’t have much growing up and made it my goal to have “enough” when I was an adult. My first CD was successful (in the radio play, awards, cash cow sort of way). I went out o buy me and my family “enough” and overshot…very overshot. I bought what I would consider a mansion (4600 square feet), big TV, cable, two cars, etc etc). I justified this by saying I’m not as rich as “that guy.”
But I felt hypocritical and bored. I gave lots of money and time away but couldn’t shake the feeling. Then I met the child I sponsor through COmpassion International in El Salvador. At the end of our visit she kissed my cheek, said “thank you” and I knew I couldn’t keep living as I was while children like her die every day (30,000 to be more exact). I sold the big house, cancelled cable, sold a car, squished my wife and three kids and an office into 1600 square feet and because of this reduction in “lifestyle” I’ve been able to play for free to promote Compassion’s work and see 1008 kids saved from poverty in the last 12 months alone. I’m not bored. I’m not feeling like a hypocrite when I talk about the need for our faith to be horizontal as well as vertical. I feel better. But I still wrestle. See, if selling a big ass house, and a bunch of other stuff has allowed me to rescue so many from poverty (and I’ve been fortunate enough to get to see and meet the people this change has helped – it’s inspiring) then, I ask myself constantly, what else can I get rid of. I feel like Schindler lamenting not selling his ring. “I could have saved one more…” So, yes, this is my issue. And the hope, I suppose, is that wrestling with this issue outloud and publicly will cause others to wrestle in the same ways and maybe – I hope – simplify their lives as well and look first to the needs of the least before their own wants. But, again, I’m not sure what this simplicity looks like for you or the next guy – I don’t even know what “enough” is for myself.
Hope that provides some useful insight for you. I’m not an ass shaking a finger at everyone else. I’m seriously torn inside myself between saving one more kid or buying one more thing I don’t need. Every time I make a purchase I stand at the counter dividing it’s price by 32 (what it costs to sponsor one child for one month) and asking myself “Is this worth it?” Psychotic? Maybe. But that’s who I am right now.
The Third Issue
I’m in about 100 churches every year. Pentecostal. Baptist. Menonite. Four Square. Presbyterian. Lutheran. Non-denom. I love the diversity within American Christianity and love the chance to learn from all denominations. I do weekly. The questions I’ve asked on my blog about theology and church have been mostly pertaining to HOW we arrive at our differences. The iPhone posts began with me asking is we ALL tend to create/emphasize certain aspects of our faith based upon our own personal history/personal values/personal lifestyle.
Why are charismatic churches, the least educated denomination (in terms of the number of college degrees), often (not always) emphasizing personal experience above historical tradition or biblical scholarship? I grew up Baptist, the most obese denomination, which doesn’t preach about fitness or the body as the “Temple” of God. Coincidence? Whereas the Seventh Day Adventists (often studied by the medical profession because of their healthy diets, low cancer and heart disease rates and long life) do emphasize health and believe the body we have now is the body we’ll have forever. Coincidence? We tend to clump together based upon likenesses, not differences. And when together, all of us having certain characteristics in common, these likenesses inform ALL we do…and believe.
The iPhone was only brought up as the latest “next big thing” that certain friends of mine who happen to be pastors have been blogging about – before that it was a TV, or a car, or a watch, or a PDA. It was an example. That’s all. These friends of mine pastor churches where their love for technology and the new cool stuff on the market influences the theology and methodology of their church. Their tendency to buy expensive cutting edge items is a tendency that impacts their church budget and a whole lot more. What we love, where we’ve been, and how we live greatly influences what ideas about God we accept and reject.
The Issue of Big Screen TVs in Church
The church I’ve attended for the last 10 years has three jumbotrons, lasers, fog machine…the works. I don’t mind. I don’t care. But it bugs me when churches put all their staff and money into Sunday morning’s “event” because Sunday morning is supposed to be such a small part of what it means to be a church. Again, what we value determines greatly what our methods and theology are. Conversely, our theology and methods betray our true values.
You and I, I think, have a lot to agree upon. In fact, I don’t think we disagree on any of this. I just think I’ve done a horrible job communicating what it is I’m wrestling through. Thanks for listening, patiently explaining, and listening some more.
-SG
But I still wrestle. See, if selling a big ass house, and a bunch of other stuff has allowed me to rescue so many from poverty…I feel like Schindler lamenting not selling his ring. “I could have saved one more…”
Remember the inscription on Schindler’s ring? “He who saves one life saves the world, entire.”
I say this alot on this blog. As you said we’re just getting to know one another–although we have mutual friends–so you don’t necessarily know the things I say all the time.
But I think that God looks at things differently than we do. All the money and time that are linear and limited to us do not matter to God. It’s the attitude of the heart which matters to God.
–think of the widow’s mite
–the one lost sheep
–the one lost coin
–Balaam’s ass
–the disciples who were fishermen, not high-caste, wealthy folk.
I generally hate it when I’m forced to quote hymns because it means my own words fail me. But:
Riches I heed not nor Man’s empty praise;
Thou mine inheritance all of my days
Thou and thou only the first in mine heart
High King of Heaven my Treasure Thou art
I generally, personally, just go with that. Then if have times where I can’t afford groceries OR times where I get to go to Disneyworld it’s all the same. I’ve got the contentment of knowing where and what my treasure is. As for what I do with the money I do (or, more often than not, don’t) have I figure the Lord tells me and I do fine.
Thanks for that. I wonder though if God has already told us.
No, correction, I think he has already told me what to do with what I have. There are over 200 verses of scripture about the poor and God’s desire for us to care for them – more verses than He used to talk about heaven and hell combined. But we’re more certain about heaven and hell. I’ve never heard anyone say about heaven what I say about how to spend my money. “I’m waiting to hear from God on that.”
Never happens. We know. Yet so little has been said about that subject.
Or, take adultery. Or rape. Or murder. We say we know what God has told us regarding these. But God has said far more about His desire for us to take care of the poor.
So I wonder, why am I waiting to hear from God, wondering if I should give up everything I can to feed the hungry, father the orphaned, shelter the exposed etc if God has already said as much.
Some days I don’t think this way but today I do think I shouldn’t wait until the Lord tells me what to do with my time and money and life. He’s already spoken.
I meant 2000 verses. Much more impressive number.
why am I waiting to hear from God, wondering if I should give up everything I can to feed the hungry, father the orphaned, shelter the exposed etc if God has already said as much
Now I feel like we’re back full circle to “ways we can help the poor.”
I do think how each handles his talents & money is a thing between him and God.
But I stand by my statement that some degree of participation in the business of society DOES help the poor by, in effect, seeing that there are fewer “poor”.
So I wonder, why am I waiting to hear from God, wondering if I should give up everything I can to feed the hungry, father the orphaned, shelter the exposed etc if God has already said as much.
If you give up everything, then you will be poor and in need of help. Does you honestly think that is what god wants you to do?
By all means, do what you feel like you’re being called to do, but for me, god wants me to be grateful and generous with what I have, but not to put myself into poverty. It’s only if I choose to allow my money to become more important to me than my relationship with God that I have a problem. Remember, King Solomon was possibly the wealthiest man of his time.
For me, I have no doubt that if I could attain a perfect relationship with god, I would have not only everything I needed but everything I could possibly want as well.