Jeffrey started this conversation over at his blog, not knowing that he’d strike at least three of my nerves simultaneously. How can I ignore any conversation that deals with
- The heresy of the “health and wealth”/”name it and claim it” false teachers
- The death of mysticism in the Christian Church
- The complete misunderstanding of the nature and practice of Wicca and paganism
do you have any insight as to where the idea that if we “all pray together”, “pray enough times”, etc, about something that those things somehow have an affect on whether God honors that prayer or not?
Ohh boy. Don’t get me started on a tirade that will go into why I think Frank Peretti’s “This Present Darkness” is a hideous malformation of Christianity [1] or why so many Christians mistake God for a cosmic vending machine that just occasionally eats your change.
The modern church has managed to be both far more pagan and far less spiritual than it should be. In our rush to sanitise the Church from being sullied by any actual religious experience we’ve turned it into a cultural ghetto.
Our relationship with God is intended to be just that. A relationship. Paul talks of Jesus being our High Priest. Those aren’t just words. Jesus’ death created a mystic bridge whereby we humans can engage directly in a communication with the Divine; hence some of Satan’s anger with us. He strove to be like God and failed. We, ironically, have a closer communication with God than Satan ever could.
Unfortunately in our rush to strip all mysticism out of the Church, we’ve also stripped most of the power out of our relationship with God. We’ve turned God from a mystical communicant into a sort of sugar-daddy.
Prayer always gives us answers, but mostly by opening our minds to that bridge of communication with the divine. We aren’t to be praying toward humanly-directed outcomes. “Ask and it shall be given” is often misunderstood to mean that if you ask hard enough, long enough or loud enough for a car or a pony or a baby or a new job you will get those things–and if you don’t get them, well, you just didn’t do your best askin’!!!
That’s wrong. Very wrong. The act of asking is an act of engaging God. In talking WITH God (as opposed to yelling AT God) you achieve an understanding about what He wants for you. You may not get the car or the pony or the baby or the new job, but you will see how your life is a better one for you than what you thought you wanted.
Many of the “health and wealth” teachers of this present false age have seized upon this heresy. As a devout Christian with chronic illness I’m convinced by God that one of the very purposes of my illness is to act in testament against the false teachings of those who would say that you are only sick because you didn’t pray hard enough. Or that you are only poor because you didn’t ask God for money.
Our prayers are not about acheiving OUR desired outcome. They are about remaining in constant communication with God. God then gives us the eyes with which we can see Divine Wisdom play out in our earthly circumstance.
[1] Why I Hate This Present Darkness:
Apparently we in the Christian church are supposed to stay so far away from non-faith works of entertainment that we must create substandard copies of Stephen King books in order to be entertained. Leaving aside the fact that most Christian fiction is the Big-K Diet Soda in a Coke world, Peretti was apparently so eager to write a thrillerly book that he didn’t bother to make it very theologically sound. God and His angels are reduced to the spiritual equivalent of the hook in a cosmic crane-grab carnival game, and can really only move at the direction of pushy human prayer. As a Christian mystic I was excited to see a book coming out of traditional faith which dealt with the power of the spiritual realm. I believe in angels, demons, ghosts and spirits, heaven and hell. I believe in alternate dimensions. Why? Because the Bible tells us repeatedly that they exist.
Unfortunately I do not believe that they exist in a world designed by the same people who make Saturday morning cartoons. I also don’t believe that our prayers exist merely as work-orders for the Heavenly Host’s daily assignments. Ultimately, that was all Peretti’s break-out book was about. Using prayer to order God around. So many people I’ve talked with gush over how much their prayer life changed upon reading TPD, which makes me sad. Our prayer lives can’t be bothered to be significant when they are merely having dialogue with the Creator of All Things. It is only when we accept a hubristic outlook of Bossing God About that many of us seem to think that prayer actually matters. It’s ironic that in accepting Peretti’s view of how prayer works we actually commit the sin of Satan. We want to take God’s place–to be in charge of God, over God.
In all the times I’ve read the dread Harry Potter books, I’ve never come across anything remotely satanic. Peretti’s book, on the other hand, strikes me as very much a danger to the Christian faithful.
Did your interest in Judaism and Jewish mysticism influence your study and/or belief in Christian mysticism?
You probably know they’re connected, though most people in our respective faiths would debate that.
So I’m a Jewish mystic and you’re a Christian mystic. We’ve got to come up with our own punchline for that.
Something about a Jewish mystic and Christian mystic walk into a bar and…
When you were studying Judaism, did you ever study any Tanya?
Ha!
I tend to think that everything Frank Peretti writes is like that. At Fundie Christian Junior High, they were some of the only “exciting” books to read (their library was a marvel of, ah, ‘selective stocking’)… the other options being Christy-style “waif-saves-ignorant-heathen” books, My life as a … thinly-veiled-morality-tale books, Nancy Drew mysteries (the original series), and a few of the the (far cooler) Cat Who novels.
But… aside from terrifying me (flying leeches that cause you to dessicate?!), the Peretti kids books also made me want to throw things. While nowhere near feminist at the time, even I caught the sexism (and racism, classism, and all the rest of ’em)… and the lessons learned were often pretty, er… dumb. And… they made me uncomfortable. Certainly, their version of Christianity was not mine.
Ahem. Anyway, sorry for the anti-Peretti threadjack. That’s a really good entry, though!
Something about a Jewish mystic and Christian mystic walk into a bar and…
The bar ceases to exist.
The bar gives you water and it turns into wine.
Did your interest in Judaism and Jewish mysticism influence your study and/or belief in Christian mysticism?
It was actually vice-versa. I’ve believe in a mystical interpretation of Christianity my entire life. I’ve just always accepted that these things (ghosts, angels, demons, glossalalia) are part of the larger faith experience.
When I began to study Judaism I of course homed right in on that, and saw how much of TRUE Kabala appears in Christianity, etc. I don’t know how anyone with even a passing knowledge of either faith could deny that Mystical Judaica formed a foundation for Christianity.
I’ve read some commentary on Tanya but not much. I’m struck by the similarities between certain aspects of Tanya–especially the Brief Tanya–to aspects of Christianity.
ha, i was gonna ask you to elaborate on your comment at my place until I saw this trackback.
I’m quite intrigued, KC. What got you into mysticism and how long have you been interested in it?
What got you into mysticism and how long have you been interested in it?
I’ve been a mystic all my life, and didn’t know I was one until a minister told me that’s what I was when I was like 15 or 16. Maybe this should be part of my Mothers’ Day post, because I learned my Christan Mysticism from (ironically) my mother and grandmother.
When they expounded on Christianity to me, they made much emphasis of the fact that these “other” forces were very real and very much a part of our world. In fact, I didn’t realise that many Christians DON’T believe in the mystical aspects until that same minister told me so.
Yes, I had a few friends at Christian school who thought that hell was a myth and that demons weren’t real. But not many.
It’s only been in later years as I’ve seen so many people flock toward Spiritualism while at the same time decrying Christianity that I’ve been very open about emphasising the mysticism of our faith.
How can we believe that miracles and angels no longer exist and still claim to be saved by a Godman who rose from the dead?
Peretti, huh? Yeah, never read that so much. Christian Fiction ™ tends to be a bit… directed for my tastes.
I think of myself as being mystic, too–maybe it’s that I’ve had a strange spiritual path and actually believe in the paranormal and all that nonsense.
I go to the Crystal Cathedral, which was one of the first health and wealth style churches… but, their service has a great emphasis on beautiful hymns and orchestral music and choruses that makes me really feel the presence of God. So it’s sort of odd and all over the place.
[…] Present Darkness,” I can’t comment on the parts of the post that relate to it, but Kat Coble is exactly right when she talks about the nature and purpose of […]
Somehow this whole discussion reminds me of the scene from the new Spider-man movie. I hope this doesn’t count as spoiler. But one of the characters ends up in a church building and starts praying. His prayer turns into a request for God to kill his ememies.
Why is it that that our prayer seems to always becoem such a “me” experince, when it’s supposed to be a God experince.
very cool background of your roots in christian mysticism. thanks for sharing kat.
a friend of mine recently asked if I had ever heard of it. I’ve only been “officially” exposed to it in brevity and am not well read on the topic at all. Can you suggest any reading or sites?
My wife and I were just discussing prayer and the power we get from it. I have one kidney and it has cancer, we will know in the next few days if part or all of it has to be removed. We just got back from a small church supper where a number of people told us that I have been in their prayers and I have been talking to family members and friends in several states who are all praying for me.
All I ask for is the grace to accept and handle the outcome, whatever it may be. To me prayer is that simple and that powerful. I think it is silly to pray for a wishful outcome since cancer is a case of, it is what it is.
I can pray for good medical care and skillful doctors to help me deal with the current situation but in the end, for good mental and spiritual health, I pray that the Lord’s will be done.
I know that our, my wife and my, mental attitudes of thankfulness and gratitude will carry us through, no matter what our lot will be and we have been blessed in our lives and we have dealt with rough situations.
So, that is my simple little story about Christian Prayer,
Lord, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven
I’ve only been “officially” exposed to it in brevity and am not well read on the topic at all. Can you suggest any reading or sites?
Well, there’s always the Gospel of John, the Pauline epistles and the Revelation to St. John the divine. In short, most of the New Testament.
Seriously, I know it sounds overly simple and glib, but the Bible is the best primer on Christian mysticism around. It is in and of itself an exploration of Man’s relationship to God. How is that not mystical?
But if you must do extra-biblical exploration on the topic, I suggest you start with this website and move on to this website and their recommended reading lists.
Simply put, the original Christian Mystic was Jesus Himself.
My wife and I were just discussing prayer and the power we get from it…in the end, for good mental and spiritual health, I pray that the Lord’s will be done.
That’s the essence of prayer, that Christians find spiritual succor in the presence of God and that succor translates to a peace that transcends earthly understanding.
Rest assured that you are in my prayers as well.
Very interesting post. One that I will ponder on for awhile. Having moved from a fundamentalist Baptist (where glossalalia was deemed as “emotionalizing Christianity”) to a more charismatic church, my journey into the spiritual realm (angels, principalities, & powers) was very enlightening. However, I never considered it Christian mysticism. In fact, I don’t think I have ever heard of that term until meeting you! Unfortunately, I bought into the whole “believe it/receive it” mentality, and have had a major crisis of faith beginning when I had major complications after the birth of my child. Why would God not heal me when I had a little newborn baby who needed her mother to take care of her? Then on to, why did I have to experience the disintegration of my marriage and no white picket fence like I thought God wanted for me? I have had to go through quite an intense deprogramming! It is all very intriguing. I do believe in spirituality, fate, Karma, etc., and am attempting to rebuild my entire belief system. Thanks for sharing yours.
However, I never considered it Christian mysticism.
Most people don’t.
I bought into the whole “believe it/receive it” mentality, and have had a major crisis of faith … I have had to go through quite an intense deprogramming!
Yep. Of course. You’ve got these folks telling you to buy their book or send money to their program so that you can show just how much you Believe it and will Receive it. And if you don’t receive it, it’s YOUR fault. Not theirs or God’s. It’s quite a good racket, selling false hope. It’s worked all these years for diet pills, stock swindles and every other bit of snake oil. Why not for the modern church as well?
I do believe in spirituality, fate, Karma, etc., and am attempting to rebuild my entire belief system.
Well, I believe in all of that, but I just call it God.
Might I suggest you look into the writings of and about Julian of Norwich? I think you’d find a lot to like in her work and life.
Funny, but I just realised her Saint’s Day was yesterday. I should have written about that. It would have been a good Mothers’ Day blog. Oh well.
it’s a little late for me to put together a full read and response kat, but as i scanned i can’t agree more with the church giving an absence of the mystic in our world. probably due to saint aquinas and augustine founding a right thinking western theology, but how can one target two people after hundreds of years of reformation & protestantism.
you will find in the halls of my church apologizing to the youth our churches history of removing the mystic. so we try and engage the spiritual life in lament, image, prayer, & other practices that might be considered new age or pagan by the short sighted because they don’t know the history of spiritual practices of the ancient church.
that’s all for now, i’ll revisit tomorrow
One of the reasons I don’t think I’ll ever make the jump into the ministry is that I don’t do prayer right. Especially public prayer. I’ve found it near impossible to strip away all the people who are “listening” (OK, they’re praying with me), and just have a conversation with God.
And I’ve never quite gotten a handle on the right mindset. I alternate between “Jesus, my buddy”, and “Almighty Father, the unnapproachable”. I realise that God is both at one time (that whole Trinity thing again), but I feel I’m never quite approaching the Throne using “correct protocol”.
Usually, I end up somewhere closer to the “Jesus, my buddy” mindset. I consider the tearing of the veil of the temple to be the single most important symbolic even in the Bible. I don’t consider it myth; I believe it happened, and for a specific reason. There is now nothing that seperates us as we are from approaching the Lord God Almighty. That’s a HUGE change from Judaism and Islam.
Anyway, in my quiet moments, I just pray, and don’t worry if I’m doing it right. I wish I could translate that to public prayer, because I’m asked to do it a lot.
Name it/claim it? Pah.
Kat, did the spam-eater get my comment, or did I just write a long reply and somehow lost it?
thanks for the reading suggestions kat. i’ll definitely check them out.
one of those sites you linked to says that a short mystical apologetic is:
* That while we honor the Scriptures, we want to know God directly, not just through Scripture.
* While we respect our heritage of teachings about God, we want to know God directly, not through doctrines and teachings.
* While we gather in communal worship, we want to know God directly, not just through the Church.
that’s kind of what I’m talking about over at TCP with ya. I just no longer feel it necessary, for myself and myself alone, to formally gather at a church building and actually put down the Bible a year ago b/c I felt I didn’t know God outside of it.
It was very weird to read that first bullet about the Bible, since that was the very reason I laid it down.
thanks for the links kat.
Interesting conversation.
Old Texan, I hope you get some good news.
and actually put down the Bible a year ago b/c I felt I didn’t know God outside of it.
I can understand that desire, but Christian mysticism does NOT disavow the Bible. Far from it. The Bible is our roadmap. Our letter from God.
You can have a personal relationship with God, but if you adhere to Christian mysticism, it is essential that your relationship with God be amplified by studying His teachings as laid forth in the Bible.
I never want to give the impression that Christian Mysticism is some sort of seizing the air and disregarding of Scripture.
I’ve found it near impossible to strip away all the people who are “listening” (OK, they’re praying with me), and just have a conversation with God.
Oh my goodness. Could I talk forever about the flaws of corporate prayer? Yes, yes I could. But I won’t.
“Therefore, we boldly approach the throne of grace to give announcements about who is in the hospital and to impress upon other Christians just how in touch we are with God and how eloquent we are!”
That’s in the Bible somewhere, isn’t it?
Frankly, I would much prefer it if corporate prayer were not offered aloud in non-liturgical churches. While listening to the Rosary or other recited prayers is a beautiful and moving experience, the whole “winging it” thing we do in non-liturgical churches grates on me.
And it usually causes my mind to wander off the talk with God into various points such as “Huh. I wonder what she’s in the hospital for?” and “Wow, this guy says ‘God’ a lot!”
i just personally know in my spirit that, for me, i need to know God completely apart from the Bible for…well, for an undetermined amount of time. Another month? Year? Forever???
I found myself living vicariously through the stories of the Bible that I had not my own spiritual journey. That was a very scary realization.
I’m comfortable with my journey looking different than someone else’s and vice versa…
but i’m always open to being wrong 😉
When they expounded on Christianity to me, they made much emphasis of the fact that these “other” forces were very real and very much a part of our world. In fact, I didn’t realise that many Christians DON’T believe in the mystical aspects until that same minister told me so.
Huh. Is that the definition of a “mystic”? Guess I are one too, if that be the case…
My mom had many experiences with the demonic, and as a Chaplain’s wife was sometimes called upon to “clean house” when some wife got the brilliant idea to have a seance (sp??) to contact their Vietnam-killed husband.
I’ve had some experiences myself because of her involvement.
…off to Weight Watchers at Work, so I’ll re-join the conversation after lunch (if it’s still going…)
Maybe it’s because it’s Nashville and everybody came here to be a singer, but I find the public worship I have experienced here far, far more performative than anything I’ve run into anywhere else. I find it so offputting I can hardly express it. I’m coming from a different idea of what a religious service should be like than most of you in this discussion, and I may just be having bad luck with the lack of options here, but, ugh.
I find the public worship I have experienced here far, far more performative than anything I’ve run into anywhere else.
For me it’s a bit of yes and a bit of no.
At my current church, at least, there’s an acceptance that at least 40 other congregants could pull of the solo at least as well as you, so you remain humble.
Whereas when I went home over Christmas the two or three soloists in the church thought they were entitled to act like God’s Own Best Miracle, and went swanning in and out of the sanctuary like grotty little divas.
Then again, I’ve been to other churches in the Greater Nashville Area where I’ve felt like I was at The First Church of Demo Tapes.
Is that the definition of a “mystic”?
Pretty much, yeah.
Guess I are one too, if that be the case…
A lot more Christians are a lot more Mystic than they realise.
My mom had many experiences with the demonic,
I’ve seen angels, and experienced the presence of demons. All of the angels I’ve seen (of which I am aware) have been in either human or animal form. No wings and no thousand eyes.
i need to know God completely apart from the Bible
I guess to me that sounds a bit like being married to someone who you met in elementary school but to whom you haven’t written or spoken since.
I’m comfortable with my journey looking different than someone else’s and vice versa…
Every person’s journey is different from another’s by definition. Yet I would say if you continue to claim Christianity and attempt to do so without the Bible you are on a journey that has no compass.
“I guess to me that sounds a bit like being married to someone who you met in elementary school but to whom you haven’t written or spoken since.”
i definitely hear and see where you’re coming from kat. However, the Bible is not the be-all, end-all when it comes to communication/unity/intimacy/relationship with God…from my perspective.
I feel as if I must know and relate to God apart from a book of other people’s knowing and relating with Him. Again, for how long a time…I don’t know.
I guess to keep with your simile, i feel as if I’m married to someone whom I have only written back and forth with yet have never spoken to directly. For me, knowing God outside of that text, is another step on the journey.
However, the Bible is not the be-all, end-all when it comes to communication/unity/intimacy/relationship with God…from my perspective.
Nor from mine.
But I think if you discard the Bible entirely, you may occasionally get garbled communication.
On the topic of public praying, evangelist D L Moody once remarked that you could always tell those who never prayed at home…because they tried to make up all the missed time at once when called on to pray in public!
And ROTFLOL at the First Church of the Demo Tapes….classic.
Katherine,
I wrote to you last night about my kidney concern. My Doctor just informed me that he will remove just part of my kidney and the remainder of the kidney should remain functional. My prayers have been answered and if all goes well I won’t have to be on dialysis.
We, my wife and I receive this news as a gift from God and we give him thanks and praise.
And it usually causes my mind to wander off the talk with God into various points such as “Huh. I wonder what she’s in the hospital for?” and “Wow, this guy says ‘God’ a lot!”
UGH! “…and we just come to you today, Father, to ask, Father, that you would, Father, watch over the sick, Father…”
Father-Father-Father!! “Father” “Jesus” “Lord” and “God” (or “LordGod”) are all the spiritual “ums” of prayer. Drives me nuts.
There have been times when I’ve even asked a person later, “how many times do you say a person’s name during a conversation with them? — Do you say, for example, I was wondering, Kat, how often, Kat, you sing in the shower, Kat. Because, Kat, I sing, Kat, in the shower too, Kat.”
Yeah. That’s exciting conversation for the listener.
Okay, I’m off my soapbox now.
I learned a little “trick” from my pastor at my home church in Los Angeles that helped my public prayers be just as real and personal as my private ones. Erwin takes a long moment in silence before he starts praying. I found that when he did that, I actually had a chance, in the silence, to “see” myself before God in my mind and focus on Him first. It improved my own corporate prayer life (as in praying in a group). So I tried it out the next time I was asked to pray out loud. I let there be silence as I, in my own mind, saw myself before God, focused on Him and had a private moment with just He and I before I prayed. An amazing thing happened. I had a conversation with God rather than a monologue for Him and everyone else listening. Since then I’ve not had any problems, concerns or fears about praying out loud and I can be as real with Him in public as I am in private. And all my “Father”s “Lord”s “God”s and “Jesus”s went away as well. I quit spiritual “um-ing” and returned to my normal “uh” pause when I was searching for the right word.
I find the public worship I have experienced here far, far more performative than anything I’ve run into anywhere else.
Yeah, I’ve noticed that too. And yeah, I think part of it is because it’s Nashville. The other part is because that’s what’s expected and culturally “norm” for today’s “contemporary” church worship.
Okay… now I’m gonna say something that’s gonna make Kat’s hair stand on end… I hope you still like my afterward…. 🙂 … but I rather liked/enjoyed “Present” and “Piercing”. I also read “The Prophet”, which aside from being the last Peretti novel (or Christian fiction period) I read also helped me define a couple of experiences I’ve had that I think can best be called “visions”. “The Prophet” described them almost exactly as they had happened to me. — Which is very weird, I tell you; to be reading your own experience in someone else’s novel. What the..??
Anyway, back to “Present” for just a moment. For me I felt it also came the closest to describing some experiences I’d had. I never came away from it with a “name it/claim it” “prayers exist merely as work-orders for the Heavenly Host’s daily assignments mentality. I don’t even remember that mentality being in there. I guess more what I remember (it’s been 18 years at least since I read it) is the activity of demons and how it so closely resembled my own experiences with the demonic.
I realize that sounds like I’m all “demon-focused” but I’m not. At least I don’t think I am…. I’ve just seen the enemy at worka lot and it always astounds me how most Christians are completely clueless about it all. They blame satan for stuff that’s not his doing and then don’t see his manipulations even when it bites them in the butt.
Well, that’s all I have to say on that. Sadly, I think I’ve already exhausted all my thoughts on Peretti et al. Please resume intelligent discourse. 🙂
I hope it never becomes the norm for Conservative Judaism.
I hope it never becomes the norm for Conservative Judaism.
Why am I picturing the Neil Diamond version of The Jazz Singer with Neil as the cantor in rhinestones doing a rockin’ version of Kol Nidre?
I swear I would not wish “contemporary” worship on anyone. It’s not my favourite thing.
It’s fine for some people, but I wish they’d realise that a lot of us appreciate the majesty of tradition, and quit trying to jazz up tradition with drumlines and disco balls.
[…] 2007 by Katherine Coble So here we are having conversations–good conversations–about Christianity, Mysticism, the saving grace of the Blood of Christ and other little faith […]
First Church of the Demo Tapes
ROFLMAO
However, the Bible is not the be-all, end-all when it comes to communication/unity/intimacy/relationship with God…from my perspective.
Nor from mine.
I would have to add that it is the yardstick by which all others are measured though. If something adds to or attempts to discredit or supplant the Bible, then you’re in trouble.
But your Bible adds to and attempts to supplant other scriptures. Where do you draw the line?
Where do you draw the line?
Just at the point where we supplanted YOUR scriptures. ;-p
Seriously, I look at this ‘debate’ on Scripture from a Christian perspective, obviously.
I’d have to say that I think anyone is free to worship acccording to whatever Scripture they choose.
BUT if a person self-identifies as a Christian and claims Christianity, they need to abide by the precepts and teachings of Christianity, which include many clear designations about what is true Christian scripture, what is false Christian scripture and how to determine false teaching.
The beauty of free will is being able to say “I don’t accept this way. I choose another way.”
Of course, then, you aren’t a Christian.
And, Patrick, for the record the Mormons not only add, but also attempt to discredit, as they are a group who disavow the Divinity of Jesus as described in John 1:1.
Interesting…I’m a mystic? Well then! lol
Having sensed the presence of demons and seen an angel before myself I definitely belief in the other realm, or other part of our ‘realm’, if that’s a better way to put it.
You’ve really hit the nail on the head as far as the church trying to erase any kind of mysticism. I’ve been trying to say that for years, but not knowing what it was actually called, couldn’t find the proper word. No wonder there are so many problems – we dont even understand the basics.
Finally, just a word of (I hope) encouragement: both my mother and myself have been castigated by other Christians because of chronic illnesses and, in Mom’s case, a broken leg (she slipped off the porch) and long prior to that, her inability to have children before my sister and I showed up. We’ve been told we hadn’t enough faith, or we’d be healed. Such words are not only wrong, they wound souls very deeply. I’m very blessed that I had a mother who warned me about such false and dangerous doctrines; God has never told me, in any of our talks, that I’ve not enough faith to be healed. I just wait patiently and realize those of us with such problems have been blessed in our discomfort with the ability to understand and empathize with those, believers in Jesus or not, in similar situations. We give out of our pain – actually, that’s kind of similar to what Jesus did on the cross, although not anywhere near to the same extent.
First Church of the Demo Tapes
*SNORK*
“I would have to add that it is the yardstick by which all others are measured though. If something adds to or attempts to discredit or supplant the Bible, then you’re in trouble.”
Patrick (and Kat), I’ve come to a place in my spiritual journey where I no longer consider the Bible as inerrant. That, however, does not mean that I value the teachings found there any less…which is why I still often times refer to it.
Martin Luther himself said that, though they did not make it into the canonical writings, the Apocrypha was “useful historical writings which Christians should be familiar with and which should even be read in public worship from time to time.”
But Protestants “draw the line” at the Aprocrypha. Why?
I feel that the danger in a text might come when it is in stark contradiction with the teachings of Jesus, but often times, from my point of view, teachings in the Bible are discrediting of others therein. Not to mention the fact that, as with all other religious texts, the Bible is completely open to interpretation…enter denominationalism.
So if the Bible is not the be-all, end-all, and is simply a “yardstick” (patrick) or a “roadmap” (kat), what IS the be-all, end-all, and why?
Patrick (and Kat), I’ve come to a place in my spiritual journey where I no longer consider the Bible as inerrant.
What lead you to this conclusion?
That, however, does not mean that I value the teachings found there any less
Actually, yes it does. If you don’t consider the teachings inerrant, then you don’t consider them the Word of God, but the words written by some men about God. That does automatically put less “value” to them. I value things of God more highly than I value things about God.
Martin Luther himself said that, though they did not make it into the canonical writings, the Apocrypha was “useful historical writings which Christians should be familiar with and which should even be read in public worship from time to time.”
I agree with Luther on the Apocrypha, and have read through it many times. It is valuable. I’ve also read many other parabiblical works like the Gnostic Gospels and many Hebrew parabiblical texts.
But Protestants “draw the line” at the Aprocrypha. Why?
If you read both consistently it is very easy to tell which is more Scripture and which is more Story.
often times, from my point of view, teachings in the Bible are discrediting of others therein.
Such as?
as with all other religious texts, the Bible is completely open to interpretation…enter denominationalism.
I don’t have a problem with denominationalism. Not at all. I think there are different people with different social and psychological makeup on this planet. Denominationalism exists in part so that we can all have a comfortable home for our corporate worship experience. The arrogance with the various denominations–“I’m going to heaven and you’re NOT!”–is a human byproduct that we’d have even if we had one church.
So if the Bible is not the be-all, end-all, and is simply a “yardstick” (patrick) or a “roadmap” (kat), what IS the be-all, end-all, and why?
I feel as though I’ve explained this before, but wasn’t clear. Because I believe firmly in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in all who claim Christianity, I believe that the Holy Spirit acts as our interpreter.
I believe that the Bible, coupled with the Holy Spirit’s guidance and a constant prayer dialogue with God is the be-all, end-all.
Why? Because if you’re talking with God and open to God’s direction, what else do you need really?
Of course, I read. A lot. From a lot of places. I’ve studied other religions in great and intense depth for more than 25 years now. I in no way advocate the embrace of any religion without careful study.
“What lead you to this conclusion?”
clear contradictions, inconsistencies, the prevalence of political motives, “inspired” acts not consistent with God’s nature (i.e. genocide), etc.
“Actually, yes it does”
Kat, I’ve come to feel that much of the Bible is less literal than I once believed it to be. It has not become of lesser value to me, but simply of different value, possibly greater value, than before.
“If you read both consistently it is very easy to tell which is more Scripture and which is more Story”
I clearly have not read the Apocrypha as much as you, Kat, but I feel as if they are equally Story. After all, narrative was the tradition and communication method of the ancient world. But I agree that more parts of each seem more fluid than others.
“Such as?”
See above for some, but too many to even begin to list here (not a stall, btw ;-))
“Denominationalism exists in part so that we can all have a comfortable home for our corporate worship experience…I believe that the Holy Spirit acts as our interpreter”
I used to feel the same way, but I now wonder why would the Spirit “interpret” to so many people so many different ways…vastly different ways?
Again, you are clearly and without doubt MUCH more well read than I, Kat. I do not mean to challenge you in any way, especially intellectually (for I would surely lose that battle ;-)). I only mean to honestly respond with my current feelings, questions, and spiritual resonance of which I feel are deeply true…or at least worth pondering.
As I said over at your place…i’m always open to being wrong ;-).
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