Yesterday in my trips around the internet I came across yet another person complaining about how people without kids were giving him/her advice on raising them; because those people didn’t seem to have experience, the advice was considered worthless.
I don’t give a lot of child-raising advice. But there are times when I feel qualified to point something out. After all, I was a child once. I was also the eldest of four children, a baby-sitter and a childcare worker in church. I also have a lot of common sense and a fair amount of study in the development process. I know more about language acquisition and early-childhood development than 95% of parents.
But that’s not what I want to say. What I want to say is this. Parents, I understand that you don’t want childless (the preferred term is Childfree, but whatever) people telling you how to raise your kids.
Well….maybe you should think that we don’t want to:
–hear all about every little thing your kids do. You may think it’s cute that she says “Neanut Putter”. But don’t tell us every time you see us open a Reese’s.
–stay late to do the work you didn’t finish because your child had a doctor’s appointment, a soccer game, her first middle school dance.
–pitch in to secure your job while you take 12 weeks of new parent leave.
–pay higher insurance premiums because all of our coworkers have lots of babies.
–pay property taxes that pay for schools.
–have an already hideous plane trip turn into a nightmare because your child will not stop screaming, kicking seats, throwing up.
I’m sure that while you read through that list you had all kinds of objections. Things like “well that’s how society works” and “that’s just the way things are” and “you are a bitch.”
No, I’m not. I don’t even think all those things; I’m just taking this opportunity to point out to you that there are gives and takes. Some of them are fair, some of them are petty and some of them are egregious. But as you probably thought, “that’s how society works”.
Sure, I don’t have the daily experience of parenting, but that doesn’t invalidate my opinions. I’ve also never held office, but I have opinions about politics. I’ve never made a movie or television show. Does that mean I can’t point out that Walking Dead would be better with more zombies and less repetitive introspection? I’ve never programmed apps for iOS; can I then not say which are good and which are a waste of time? Why does the App Store want my reviews?
Opinions are not formed only by doing, they’re formed by watching cause and effect. By interaction. Not all opinions are constructive and not all advice is good. But if you are using the village to raise your child, you’d best think about being nicer to the villagers.
Does this mean that my thoughts on reproductive politics have just as much validity as any woman’s?
Also, the term ‘childfree’ has a built in judgementalism, not just for oneself, but for all. In marketing, the word ‘free’ is generally used to convey that some icky, undesirable thing has been removed from the product. That’s what’s in the back of my mind everytime I hear the term ‘childfree’.
Just like a parent weighing advice from someone childless and accepting or rejecting it based on actually being in the situation, a woman ought to be given the freedom to weigh advice from men about her body, and then choose to ignore it if she so pleases. And, just as it’s inappropriate for someone without children (or even another parent) to force opinions on a parent … you get the analogy, I’m sure.
I have never said that men have no right to opinions about reproductive issues.
I understand what you’re saying, but I prefer to think of myself free from the obligation and expense of parenting rather than being less of a person because I chose a different lifestyle.
There is no word for people like us that exists apart from parenting. That in itself disturbs me–that adults who have a different path are evaluated not on their own bun on their relationship to that other path.
I think the key has to do with what area the advice giver is giving advice in. As you said, you were a child once and can give your viewpoint on how the child might be feeling in certain situations. “I remember when I was a kid I cried just like that at it was because (fill in the blank).” Oh, yes, very helpful! Or, “When my youngest sister did (blank) it meant (blank).”
Sometimes, though, we parents get advice from people who obviously have no clue. You can generally tell the difference though. Looking down the nose: “Oh, when I have kids I’ll never let them (blank).” Oh really? Come back when you’re in this situation and tell me that again.
I DO agree with you that child-free people should not bear the cost for those who choose to have children. I pay taxes for kids to be in school, but I homeschool. How is that fair? I have to pay for someone else’s seat in school AND for my kids’ schooling because I choose to take responsibility for my kids’ education?
And courtesy as a parent is a must. My husband and I think that now that there are no longer smoking sections in restaurants around here, some places should be split into family and kid-free zones! I hate feeling like my kids are being disturbances! It’s not fair to those around us. I also don’t take my kids out when they are sick (which is almost never, because we homeschool and eat organic but that’s another topic altogether….)
But I can say, there is something about having a kid that puts one into a hormonal haze that someone who has never had kids can’t understand. A little forgiveness for our babbling is needed–we often don’t see it because our life has changed its center and it takes a while to get the balance back. This is where having moms’ groups and mentors really comes into play. We need a place to get that kind of thing out of our system, and too many women simply don’t have that. I was lucky–I was surrounded by new moms, and am surrounded by homeschool moms. So my friends without kids or who have kids at totally different stages don’t generally have to listen to me blather about my own because I’ve got places where I can vent that stuff.
This is a great post. I’m lucky to not have fielded much in the way of unasked-for advice (both during pregnancy and since then) but I found myself quickly buying into the whole, “You don’t have kids–you don’t understand” mindset.
That was rather silly, I’m starting to realize. I’ve gotten GREAT advice (that I asked for) from friends who don’t have kids. They had ideas I hadn’t thought of, either because their upbringing was slightly different or they had a friend for whom the advice also worked.
I agree with Kat that it is helpful to be able to vent to other moms (particularly moms of kids close in age to one’s own) about a variety of issues. You get a sense that you aren’t alone, your kid is normal, and that [whatever it is] shall too pass. On the other hand, I don’t want to alienate myself from non-mom friends all of a sudden. There is Life Outside of Baby.
I guess we can file this under “Just Don’t Be An Asshole” in general. Details change but the message remains.
This is totally one of my pet peeves. “You don’t have kids so you don’t understand” is such a cop-out of an answer. I don’t have kids, so I might not understand, but if you can’t explain what I’m missing, then you don’t understand it either.
I try to never give unsolicited advise to specific parents about their specific children (in part because it’s rude and in part because I really DON’T understand their specifics and advise is all too often situation specific), but in a general conversation about parenting, I find it frustrating and ridiculous than non-parents should have no right to an opinion.
“You don’t have kids, so you don’t understand” really is a cop-out, and a sign that the parent in question has too much pride to admit that he/she doesn’t have all the answers (and someone else might). Just because I don’t have kids doesn’t mean that I don’t have RELATIONSHIPS. And relationships with other human beings, regardless of age, are based upon certain methods of interactions. A certain “relational I.Q.” if you will. Just because a human is ten years old does not mean that I, a childfree/less/whatever adult might not have some insight into how to relate to the kid. Saying that I don’t have any understanding is not only insulting, but it disregards whatever knowledge and wisdom that I may have gathered that might be pertinent to your situation. That disregarding behavior is pretty good evidence that a person is too proud to take any advice, and just happens to like using their child as an excuse.
Well said. That whole “relational IQ” gets at what I try to say a lot. Maybe I need a higher one.
I don’t want to defend dumb, rude people here. And you are a smart, logical person and if you think they were in the wrong, I’m willing to believe they were, sight unseen.
But hear me out: There are certain big life experiences that don’t lend themselves well to analogy. I assume I don’t fully understand fighting in a war, or having a serious, chronic illness, or being born into fabulous wealth, or living with abusive, meth-head parents. This doesn’t mean I can’t offer sensible advice, but there is an all-encompassing effect on the entire person that I maybe don’t (can’t) totally grok all the implications of.
And nothing gets parental hackles up faster than feeling judged about thier parenting, because (i think) so many of us feel in our dark, scared, little hearts like we’re DOING IT WRONG WRONG WRONG. And the stakes are (or feel) so damn high. So we’re defensive.
And then media-driven shite like the “Mommy Wars” (puke) pit everybody against everybody else. And then they report in the international press about the most extreme parenting practices out there (google “Extreme Breastfeeding” and watch the video if you feel masochistic) and some folks think that level of weirdness may be what theye’re secretly doing in Park Slope. (full disclosure: I lived in Park Slope for seven years. I was soaking in it.)
Honestly, the thing was said on Twitter, which means there were fewer than 140 characters going into it. I wasn’t offering advice–I very VERY seldom do–or opinion and I don’t know what set the other fellow off.
In my present life situation I really DO understand having a circumstance that most people don’t understand. I try my best to explain so that others get an inkling of what its like, but my explanations can never capture the whole of the thing. So even though I perhaps don’t understand all the nuances of parenting, I realise that those nuances ARE there.
I don’t think you’ve been around the times that I’ve written directly about the “you dont understand” thing. (It usually happens around Mother’s Day
). The only time it really bothers me to hear those words are when people say them in regard to the love a parent has for a child. The implication–or outright statement–being that true, deep, abiding love is only extant in the parent-child relationship and not experienced elsewhere. The short version of my response to that is that I believe God is love and God endeavours to give that experience of love to everyone, but that for some it takes different forms.
That makes perfect sense. I love my son, hell yes, but I can’t quantify it or compare it to anyone else’s love. I refuse to even try and it’s presumptuous to consider that “mine is better than yours” because…biology! So there! How awful.
Oh, ugh. Pardon the egregious typos in the above. I hadn’t had coffee.
Also, I don’t seem to have tied that bundle of thoughts together at the end. All I really wanted to say is that some of the places you find yourself while performing the Mommy-Daddy role you really, truly wouldn’t have believed possible before. All sorts of crap that was unthinkable is happening to you and you marinate in the big and little contradictions until your brain goes soft and mushy.
(How can my kid still be wetting his pants? Is it deliberate or a medical problem? There was a follow-up article about that girl who got kicked out of her preschool in DC for pee accidents that showed she was so constipated that she couldn’t have stayed dry on a bet–does my kid have a ball of poop the size of a grapefruit in him, too? Ooh, gross-he should eat more fruit. Except he won’t. Why won’t he eat something this week he ate last week? It’s not okay to feed him cheez-its for every meal, it is? No. Just for today. Maybe. Why is he screaming at me that it’s opposite day AND he’s a Siamese kitten; does that mean he’s really an old pug dog? Am I suppposed to bark back or meow? How did we end up at a private school when we both agreed we wouldn’t do that with our kid?)
So, um, advice is not a bad thing and it may be really good, but there may be a genuine, 90%-below-the-surface-like-an-iceberg of a lurking reason that it might not work and the person is unable to articulate it better than a curt, snarky brush off. Or they may just be rude and dumb, raising rude, dumb children.
I’ve never told someone they don’t understand because they don’t have kids. But I reserve the right to do so if somebody’s really treading on my tail.
And see, I think that’s fair. Sort of. I mean, like I said I rarely offer advice. Again, I grew up in a big family with a lot of things going on. And I’m a writer with the personality and traits of a writer–which means I sit back and watch a lot. So I know that seemingly simple solutions often have complex reasons preventing their implementation.
Yeah, the “Be a parent–just make him/her stop that!” is on a par with “Just eat less and exercise, fatty.” In my world.
Oddly, no one has said either of these things to me personally, but they are all over teh internetz, and so I know lots of people think them.
I would put “Be a parent–just make him/her stop that!” on par with “You’re not a parent, you don’t understand!” Both are cop-out answers to prevent the speaker from actually having to deal with whatever is being said or done.
I’m late on responding, as I just saw this… maybe someone will see it… Good post. I can understand. I know I heard that before I had children myself. But now that I have children I can understand it from both sides. I don’t mind advice because if I don’t want to take it I don’t have to. My thing is… some people that we have encountered or are family, do not understand how to talk to or around children, we don’t want cursing in front of our children, they don’t understand that the kids can’t stay up and out all night, they need an earlier bedtime, that breastfeeding happens regularly and that children cannot be expected to ride in cars for hours. Children need naps, they can’t go all day and quietness is appreciated when they are napping, etc, etc. You obviously have experience around children and that is totally different than some people that some parents encounter (at least me and my husband). I never use those words you mentioned, I actually don’t say anything at all… I just silently get aggravated! But truly I do wish they understood something about kids, it’s not that they have to understand it all. Parenting is hard and sometimes I think some people think it’s a piece of cake. And as for paying for schools… I plan to homeschool so yes that bothers me that I too have to pay for other children to go to public schools. But I also have a problem with having to pay for other people’s healthcare, welfare checks, etc.
And as for paying for schools… I plan to homeschool so yes that bothers me that I too have to pay for other children to go to public schools. But I also have a problem with having to pay for other people’s healthcare, welfare checks, etc.
I usually don’t respond to new responses on really old posts, but c’mon people. I don’t have any kids (of the two legged variety) but I’m fine with paying for public schools because every day I reap the benefits of living in an educated (or a more educated than not) society. You homeschool. That’s a completely valid option, but it’s one that isn’t available for many parents who have neither the resources nor the education to home school their children. Unless you’re suggesting that society would be better off going back to the days when only the bourgeois were educated, you’re not paying for public schools because they educate YOUR kids; you’re paying for public schools because a society in which everyone has access to education is a more desirable option.
I hesitate to go in to the more controversial topics you mention, only because they will certainly derail the thread, but the same is basically true for each of those. You don’t want to get sick because somebody is out there spreading a bacterial infection, but you don’t want to pay for them to have access to antibiotics. You don’t want your house broken into because somebody feels they have no other option if they want to feed their children, but you don’t want to pay for a safety net to aid those who hit hard times and have no where else to turn to help them get back on their feet. Living in a civilized society has a price tag. Nothing is free. If you want to reap the benefits, stop complaining about having to pay for it. There’s no such thing as a free lunch.
No, there is no such thing as a free lunch. But I have come across many people that expect everything for free. You make it sound like I don’t want to help anyone. I will express myself here because you began this dolphin and I feel I have the right to respond. Well, dolphin, I have worked my last 15 years in social service roles helping individuals with disabilities, etc. that absolutely needed assistance through programs such as Medicaid, etc. My point is that the costs keep getting higher and higher. There is a difference between helping those who can’t help themselves and are sick, are poor, etc. and those who take advantage of the system. And yes, I have seen plenty of people taking advantage of the system. Some get twice as much in food stamps as I can budget for my own food for my family (larger than their’s mind you). I’ve been told by client’s that they sell their food stamps or give their rent money up for crack because if they don’t they will have to give them sex for their addiction. And clients have told me that churches should give them better food (they are based on donations!) and gas money so they can ride around because they get bored at home. When you work in the field and see/hear these things it does make you aggravated that those who really need the help aren’t getting what they need compared to some taking advantage. And in regards to education, well, I am considering homeschooling because the public school system in my area is failing. In my state the minimum you have to have is a HS diploma. With that said, no, not just any Joe Schmoe can homeschool, but you don’t have to be a rich person or have a Master’s degree either. I am in no way rich, not even on the road to being rich or pretending to be rich (like many in our society)… but this is something that I am choosing for my family. While we are strapped for cash, at the same time I will know that my children won’t be having sex on the school bus. Yes, that happens, just like it does in the bathrooms. I can’t shelter them from everything but our public schools are far from educating our children and keeping them safe in all areas of our country. I cannot exactly afford to move right now so that I can ensure my children go to a better school. I have a problem with the taxes because of that. It’s not that I don’t want other children to have an education, it’s the lack of education among other things. And I must say, my house has been broken into twice mind you. It is one of the worst feelings in the world to come home to if you haven’t experienced it so I don’t appreciate your comment. I don’t live in a slum area, or a rich area. It’s just a simple, low to mid middle class area. I guarantee you the people were not looking for items to sell to feed their children. I don’t have expensive things because I don’t waste money on them nor do I have any medications because we are fortunate to be young and healthy at this time. But between us and the houses in the area that were broken into, the people were looking for items to sell so they could get DRUGS, and they were looking for drugs. They got bored with my allergy medications and had them all over the floor. Don’t tell me that I don’t understand this because I again have clients who have told me they rob people all the time to get their drug fix. Finally, I was agreeing with Coble (the person who posted this, remember?) about not wanting to pay for others to go to school… her words were more related to paying higher property taxes. Why is it that everything has to be based on one side? I am entitled to my opinion too. Sorry to say this, but if you HAD children you may understand the costs associated with having children. It truly is a different world. And if you had children and you didn’t want them to participate in public school, you would possibly not want to pay for everyone elses children too. Our healthcare system did/does need reform and etc etc, but because of the reform my insurance doesn’t cover much of anything anymore. I don’t have the money to pay out of pocket either dolphin! AND I understand that some people need welfare to get by. My sister did briefly, my niece did, etc. But they had it, and then worked their butts off to find jobs so they didn’t have to be on it anymore. Now, don’t take offense to anything I have said here, because it seems that people get offended very easily nowadays. I have my ideas, thoughts and opinions just like you.