JL Kirk Responds
April 7, 2007 by Katherine Coble
A couple of months ago I wrote an honest post about our experiences with JL Kirk & Associates.
The Recruiter we saw there has responded in the comments of that post. I’m bringing her response over here without further comment at this time. UPDATE 4/8/07: The words remain those of our JL Kirk Consultant. On the advice of many wise people whom I respect I have gone through and hotlinked several blog entries which stand as direct refutations (predating my association with JL Kirk Associates) to the falsehoods in KRM’s statement. Please feel free to click on any links for clarification. In addition I’ve also clarified my thoughts. My thoughts are endnotes.
UPDATE 4/17/06: Attorneys for JL Kirk & Assocs. contacted Media Bloggers Association attorney Ronald Coleman shortly after receiving his letter stating that the MBA was representing me in this dispute on Thursday afternoon. Both sides expressed their wish to avoid litigation or further aggravation of the situation. JL Kirk’s main concern at the outset was that we communicate their position - which is different from the information originally told to me by a JL Kirk employee - that JL Kirk is not a continuation of the defunct Bernard Haldane company, either in terms of corporate identity or stock ownership, and that JL Kirk’s principal, Kirk Leipzig, is only a former Bernard Haldane employee but did not buy any assets or stock of Bernard Haldane. I can’t vouch for the truth of that statement because I have no first-hand knowledge of the facts, but evidently anyone who wants more information can obtain it from JL Kirk.
As you know if you read their cease and desist letter, the company disagrees with what I have said about them here, but they have told the MBA lawyer that they are interested in discussing this with my husband and me personally rather than litigating in court. I have not decided if I am interested in talking, but I don’t mind the idea of putting this behind me and moving on, and will not write on this topic again.
In response to those who choose to hide behind pseudo names, anonymous postings, and Mrs. Katherine Coble herself, I will respond to the blog herein; I am the matronly, eccentric grandmother, with the tackily decorated office within J.L. Kirk Associates.
There is a cultural phenomenon regarding information regurgitated on the internet. It seems there is a segment of our techno-access population who believe; if the written word resides on the internet, regardless of platform or source, it MUST be true! This is a sad testament to our information starved population, who use the internet as their link to the outside world. This platform/blog typifies the “mob” mentality, so for that reason, I will address and defend the fabrications written herein.
For those who are unaware, the Bernard Haldane organization no longer exists in Tennessee or to my knowledge anywhere in the United States. This is a fact. Mr. Kirk purchased the remaining assets of the BH organization here in Brentwood, changed the philosophy, company mission, replaced every BH employee, and put his name of the door! [1]Does this sound like a person who is hiding? As part of the purchase, he inherited the liabilities as well; unhappy clients who were hurt by former unethical practices he had no part in delivering. The price to appease those clients and put his business on the “moral” road to recovery was in excess of $154,000. Does this sound like a scammer? He was not ordered by any court or official, he did it to end the reign of BH and all the negativity.
I will now address. Katherine Coble’s accusations. It is important to know that when I met Mrs. Coble and her husband, neither was gainfully employed. Mr. Coble placed his resume on a free internet job site looking for employment. As a result of his resume posting, by his own admission Mr. Coble has received dozens of emails from the insurance industry, work at home, get rich quick, etc. (Had Mr. Coble accepted a position selling insurance for example, he would have had to pay for his own education, paid for his license, and waited for any possible compensation if/when he sold a policy.) Apparently these unsolicited offers are less offensive than a genuine offer of help – which I will address in detail further in this post. [2]
During the initial interview with my colleague, it was mentioned that Mr. Coble is an avid cyclist and a member [3]of a fledgling not for profit group. It is his hope to make this his career in approximately 2 years. With no motive other than to be helpful, my colleague put Mr. Coble in touch with a cycle/marketing person, name, telephone number and personal introduction. Further, Mrs. Coble was given a publishing contact as she is apparently an aspiring writer. In both cases, with no motive whatsoever, my colleague offered the contacts and use of her name – to the Coble’s, two perfect strangers! What was the result of the contacts? I have no idea (and as a simple gesture is irrelevant); [4] however, it is not part of our job description to provide ANYTHING to individuals during a screening interview. I read nowhere in this blog where your hostess thanked my colleague for her kindness. None was expected, so it makes my colleague the bigger person.
Our business model provides that we are able to grant services to approximately 225-250 clients per year. A scam would know no limits as to the number of clients per year - as the goal would be to reap as many fees as possible. Despite the baseless accusations waged by Mrs. Coble, our company provides a service that no other company in Nashville provides! Our career management staff, coupled with marketing and networking staff FIND JOBS FOR OUR CLIENTS! FACT!!!! We routinely represent individuals who bring personal/professional challenges to their career search; history of job hopping, lack of education, extraneous education, poorly crafted resume, poor interviewing skills, lack of professional resources, inability to identify their skill sets, lack of focus and/or direction, to name a few. Our staff spends countless hours working with each individual client to make them more marketable. Each client and ALL their issues are tackled, one at a time. It’s laughable that anyone of medium intelligence would put ANY stock in the juvenile facetious rant (the really good jobs are available only to those ‘in the know’ and can only be obtained through some wizardy combining Masonic handshakes, good dentistry and whatever pixie dust this particular company stores in the backroom) [5] And by the way, in Mrs. Cobles’ case, we would recommend (free of charge) to further her writing “career” she learn to spell “wizardry” and polish her grammar and punctuation skills. I make no apology for my skill (or lack of) as I never intend to make a living as a writer. [6]
Do we charge a fee for what we do? Yes. There is only one method to conduct a career search that is free of COST; the internet, newspaper, church or friends/contacts to SEARCH ON YOUR OWN. All career development resources (beyond those mentioned) require an investment by the job seeker. It is a misnomer that there are companies who do not charge fees (commissions) paid by the employee. I will briefly explain.
Head hunters, recruiters, and employment agencies are commissioned sales organizations. Their commission is generally 20-40% of first year gross income. Commonly, the employer will write the check. However, ONLY at the very highest levels of employment (CEO, President, COO, CFO, etc.) does the company actually PAY for the service. For those below this level, the employee typically pays for the placement in a reduction of salary. Sadly, this reduced salary is compounded annually and the cost of placement assistance becomes astronomical beyond the initial commission.[7] Apparently Mrs. Coble and her band of blind followers find no fault with the aforementioned company types WHO GET PAID. [8]
Agencies of this type do not represent individuals; they represent companies who will pay their commissions. As with any sales organization, the more (resume’s) they have to present to a company, the greater the likelihood of placement success. While this arrangement is extremely profitable for the “agency,” it leaves individual job seekers out of the equation when time (finding a job) is of the essence. A successful agency attracts new applicants daily, which become additional competition for the few job openings typically represented.
As one writer stated, his company only uses Monster.com & Craig’s List when searching or advertising for viable applicants. If this is a successful recruitment venue for his company, great. However, what about the ten’s of thousands of positions that are never advertised OR are advertised on company boards or otherwise, that the job seeker knows nothing about? If one doesn’t know a particular company exists, it’s impossible to access potential opportunities. To gain entrée to companies, identify potential opportunities, develop an ongoing relationship, etc., it takes time, personnel & money. Networking and marketing are expensive, and an on going pursuit that may not be fruitful for months or years. None the less, it is the business of the marketing company (JLK-A) to implement daily, weekly, monthly & annual pursuits on behalf of our clients today and for the future. In effect, it was yesterday’s work that provides the opportunities for our clients today! [KC: Here again is evidence of that Bernard Haldane child of the Proprietary Database. They claim to have a built-in network. They claim that is what you are paying for...access to their network.]
Mrs. Coble wrote ad nausea, about the careful design of strong arm tactics by an eccentric grandmother, emasculation of her husband, exploitation & vulnerability. Think about this. Why, did the Coble’s come to JLK-A in the first place? [9] To spend so much time and effort devising an angry, adversarial “game plan” prior to arrival was guaranteed to result in nothing positive or productive. Did I state the facts to Mr. & Mrs. Coble? Yes. When I explained the challenges in any career search, I also told Mr. Coble what I believed his challenges and opportunities to be. I concede, without benefit of a crystal ball, I could not speak to specific positions or companies, as it had yet to be determined exactly WHAT Mr. Coble wants to do. [10] As an organization we are to be faulted for his lack of specific focus? Mr. Coble was unemployed because he quit his former position…in excess of 6 weeks before he was interviewed by JLK-A. The circumstances of this unemployment would indicate that direction is an issue. Also, his former salary was $20,000 less than his career high, so it would indicate as a job seeker Mr. Coble has had difficulty with sustained upward mobility. [11]Could we help him, yes – but the Coble’s were so steadfast in their paranoia that this will never happen. Finally, when asked what he would like to do, Mr. Coble responded, “I would like JLK-A to assist me with those aspects of identifying and accessing career opportunities that I’m unable to accomplish myself. Specifically, to help identify companies and positions that will be a good fit with my skills, experience and personality, and to assist in opening the doors to exploring these opportunities.” I know of no resource (anywhere) that would/could address these issues free of any cost.
The only fear tactic was in the mind of blog hostess. I presented the fee in a direct and succinct manner. [12]No hocus-pocus, no fairy dust. It is what it is. We do a job, we get paid. When asked questions, they were answered – directly and without trickery.[13]
To respond to the “bring the spouse” tirade is almost comical but apparently there is a gross misconception perpetuated here. A career search affects everyone in a household. NO spouse is going to make a decision regarding his/her career without the full support of his/her spouse. Additionally, if there are problems at home, the likelihood of a completely successful search is greatly diminished. (i.e., accepting a position simply to placate one’s spouse, etc). These are issues we need to know BEFORE we accept a candidate as a client. As a company we are not predisposed to getting in the middle of a spousal fray, where the potential “settling” for a lesser position could result in OUR client not realizing his/her full potential – ultimately unhappy. Further, it is helpful to know the opinion (as it relates to the candidates career) of the spouse. No smoke, no mirrors – it simply makes sense! For the reasons mentioned above – we never consider a candidate without meeting the spouse (and in this day and time significant other/fiancé/my baby’s daddy/etc., applies).
For the record, the gentleman who arrived without his spouse was NOT chastised in front of the Coble’s, nor was it staged. [14] That comment is simply stupid.
To suggest that JLK-A has some inside track with the Internal Revenue Service, or has any idea if, or how much, a person receives in tax refund is a ludicrous statement. Not only is individual tax information NOT public, it would take a hacker of Herculean talent to delve into the IRS files. Stupid.
There is a Peace quilt hanging on the wall in my office. [15] Every square was handmade by a different person, assembled by a volunteer/reader and sponsored by Midwest Living Magazine. Once completed (and there were 20 quilts), individually they were auctioned to the highest bidders. Every dime raised was donated to the survivor families of 9-11. This is not a vintage or antique quilt that would command huge money in any selling venue. I personally paid a large sum of money at auction for this quilt as the proceeds went for a good cause. It hangs in my office because it helps me remember that terrible day and my money helped families in need. With few exceptions, every person entering my office has commented favorably on it. The auction tags, quilt sponsor and quilt assembler continue to hang on the back. BTW – all 20 quilts hung on display for one year at the Mall of America’s in Minnesota. Mrs. Coble’s spiteful meanness precluded her from asking me about it. The Raphael Cherubs are my fancy (as is the Vintage Victorian NOT Oriental rug) – I plan to see the original Cherubs in Italy this summer. Mrs. Coble was so free to criticize my surroundings – she would die if she saw my beyond eclectic, antique filled home! Wonder what hers’ looks like?!
In conclusion, to those of you who hastily jumped on the JLK-A bashing band- wagon…have you checked out the instigator? Do a Google search on Katherine Coble! She is an angry, opinionated basher of many things[17] – and you might not like her positions either. Never in my life have I felt with such conviction to defend my company, my boss or my ethics. In this case, you, all of you are wrong in your assumptions about JLK-A. Don’t be lead by a negative, attention seeking, unhappy individual who is going through a rough time. Being unemployed and nearly broke would make anyone unhappy. However, an opinion, stated as such is fine. Hers’ was not an opinion, she fabricated quotes, invented an atmosphere that did not exist and led all of you. She lied…pure and simple. Those of you who have made and cancelled an appointment,[18] I wish you luck in your career search. Not knowing the “facts” about my company and believing all this drivel is really your loss. KRM.
—-ENDNOTES—-
[1] KC: Yet the very practices of Bernard Haldane–right down to the promise of accessability to leads exclusive to JLK-A–were mimicked in our JLK-A Interview. We were told that they had direct access to the “people who do the hiring for the Big Jobs”.
[2] KC: None of those other unsolicited offers presented themselves as a Job Opportunity complete with a series of interviews requiring us to drive 20 miles.
[3] KC: Co-founder
[4] KC: Husband Contacted the person involved. She may or may not participate, but she is a Buddhist and wasn’t particularly interested in a Christian cycling organisation. Husband did let her know she was welcome to participate regardless of her difference in faith. The contact I was given bounced me over to a book distribution outlet that handled a type of work I do not write. I continue to have other contacts within the publishing industry who are more in line with what I need. I would also point out that were I a poor writer, my entry would not have elicited such a response.
[5] KC: During our interview we were told that the career managers “worked magic”. I’m a huge Harry Potter fan, so that particular turn of phrase stood out to me.
[6] KC: Recommendation Duly Noted
[7] KC: This is straight out of her presentation patter, almost word-for-word. And straight out of the presentation booklet we got to take home with us. And straight out of Bernard Haldane’s old material.
[8] KC: I believe I said in the original post that I have no problem with paying for services RENDERED. I have a problem with being asked to pay upfront.
[9] KC: Because we believe in leaving no stone unturned.
[10] He wanted a job. He presumed that flexibility and his wide range of assets was a GOOD thing. It wasn’t a question of what he wants to do as much as a question of which of the many things he is qualified to do would he be hired for first. He had three jobs in the pipeline when we interviewed at JLK. Among the interviewer’s first words were an accusation that we would be wasting JLK-A’s time if one of those jobs came through even as the magic-working Career Managers were pushing for him with other companies.
[11] KC: Not true, but I’m not going to discuss the specifics of our finances here. Those who know us can vouch for the complete untruth of this.
[12] KC: Husband enquired about the fee at the first interview. No answer was given. Husband enquired about the fee in email prior to the second interview. We were told the fee and fee structure would be discussed at the second interview. We had to wade through nearly 25 minutes of interrogation before the fee was presented to us.
[13] KC: If you consider “wait until the next interview” a direct answer, sure.
[14] KC: Uh, yes he was chastised in front of us. The very next “nor was it staged” clause is proof that he was indeed reprimanded right in the lobby in front of us, God and that fake fireplace. IF it had not happened, you would not have needed to say “nor was it staged.”
[15] KC: About all the office decoration, which she has apparently taken offense to my describing…. I did not ask about the Peace Quilt because after cooling my heels in the lobby for a quarter of an hour I wanted to get down to business, not talk about quilts. As far as the rest of the office description–which I NEVER described as “tacky”–I included it for a very specific reason. Before composing my write-up I went to other sites to see what information existed. There are several complaints about JLK-A at Ripoff Report which were rebutted by JL Kirk employees. Many of JL Kirk’s rebuttals seem to involve some sort of “this person was never in our office” type of statement. So I figured the best way to refute that was to describe the office. Who, after all, could make up details like a Raffael print, a handmade table and a specific rug (which really tied the room together)? Obviously they now at least admit that I was indeed in their office. Of course they’re rather unclear on the rest of the circumstances but at least we’ve placed me squarely IN THE OFFICE.
[17] Angry some days. Opinionated most days. Basher of many things? Yes. Bad episodes of Lost. Bad episodes of Extreme Makeover Home Edition. Big government. War On Terror Hysteria. War on Drugs Hysteria. Clowns. I bash all of these many things. It of course means nothing about the outcome of my experience with JL Kirk & Associates.
[18] Between my blog comments and emails I’m guessing that number is now in the double digits. While I’m somewhat sorry to have caused JLK’s business a bit of hardship, I’m glad to have spared other vulnerable people the pain we went through. If you don’t believe the interview was emotionally painful, I kindly ask you to reread the comments of the woman who interviewed us.
I love this letter.
If you didn’t want to get raped, you shouldn’t have dressed like a whore.
If this letter represents the organizational skills, focus, and persuasive ways the folks there bring to bear on finding work for their clients, I gotta agree that you’re better off not having gone with them even if they did have the world’s highest ethical standards.
And how dare you not have mentioned her Peace Quilt!?!!
My. Am I alone in thinking that she would have been better served to just let this drop? Now her potential clients will know for sure that she’ll breach confidentiality, charge them an arm and a leg for her “services” (which amount the same things they’re already doing for theirselves — networking, resume polishing, legwork), and jet off to Italy on their money.
I don’t think she meant to, but I believe she’s done Nashville a valuable service.
Wow. Posting details (or fabricated details) of a potential client’s financial and personal life online, regardless of a perceived provocation, is completely inappropriate. A legitimate professional should be able to defend their business without resorting to these tactics.
Just Damn.
Well, I guess if anybody had doubts that JL Kirk was a scam, they have been put to rest.
I’ve seen a client or two of my company go out of their way to screw the company over, but you’d NEVER see the company turn around a personally attack them complete with insults and passive-aggressive “jabs” at them. That is so lacking in professionalism that I’m actually a bit surprised that even a scam artist would engage in it.
Yes, I would have to agree the breach of confidentiality is unprofessional and inappropriate.
A company opens itself up to “consumer criticism” simply by existing. That doesn’t mean it’s OK for that company to breach confidentiality by responding. If I have a complaint about Best Buy and post it, that doesn’t mean it’s OK for Best Buy to respond by posting the credit card number I used for my purchase publicly.
It may not be the same thing here, but it comes AWFULLY close to crossing that line and at the very least was inappropriate and unprofessional.
Wow, holy moley. This woman is so batshit insane, it’s hard to know where to start. I do have to just chuckle at this:
And by the way, in Mrs. Cobles’ case, we would recommend (free of charge) to further her writing “career” she learn to spell “wizardry” and polish her grammar and punctuation skills.
Yet:
(resume’s)
Craig’s List
To gain entrée to companies
Mrs. Coble wrote ad nausea
Why, did the Coble’s
Etc, etc, etc. You know the routine, glass houses, throwing stones, yadda.
:::chuckles at the complete batshittery of this woman:::
Well, this I’m guessing this just about made your day, huh? You angry, opinionated, basher of many things! Sorry, that line really made me laugh out loud.
I believe, ‘ad nausea’, that she has hoisted herself on her own petard, except she is obviously too thick-headed to know what she’s exposed here. Good job with the rope…nice of her to find a tree AND tie the noose.
You know, if she wanted to respond to the personal stuff, that’s one thing but I really believe she violated confidentiality over and over in her post.
She had no right to post about your husband’s past employment history or even be opinionated about it.
It’s two different things but when I worked with battered women and in government, to violate a client/customer’s confidentiality was grounds for dismissal.
I wonder what the policies at her office are and employment law as a whole.
She had an opportunity here to educate about her chosen profession, instead it turned into me NEVER giving my personal records to anyone at J.L. Kirk because it’s become quite clear that it’s not confidential.
My wife has been a technical recruiter since 1987.
Her response?
“She’s full of shit. It’s a scam. It been around for a long time.”
Oh yeah, she might want to check companies like Manpower and Kelly.
They make the bulk of their money getting jobs for office personnel. [Ever hear of a 'Kelly-girl'?]
They do both temporary and permanent placement of people that are well-below ‘ONLY at the very highest levels of employment (CEO, President, COO, CFO, etc.)’
There are companies that handle every level of employment. My wife primarily places engineers and software guys, but she also places helpdesk, QA, testers. Some of those jobs pay $15/hour.
Don’t look now, but her guilty conscience is showing.
[...] with J.L. Kirk Associates; now they’ve responded, and seem to have made her point for her. Experience the lunacy that Kat posted without need for further comment. Spread It Around: These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and [...]
How dare she call you a liar???! I know for a fact that several of the things she said about you and your husband are outright lies! How dare she put all that personal stuff in her comment?! I know I should just laugh her off, but my protective instincts make me want to slap her face! UGH!
This is why attorneys like to have the guilty party talk on and on. -they hang themselves. First, the shrillness of their defense shows they know their guillt. Then the longer they talk the more they prove the validity of the accusations against them.
Never trust someone who wants paid before services are rendered. Nothing is harder to work on than that for which you’ve been compensated. The argument that regular employment agencies only work for employers is spurious. The successful agencies know it takes both employees and employers to make the business work. They earn their fees some times from the employee and sometimes the employer reimburses the fee to the employee. An exception to the norm is the executive search firm which is paid a fee from a company or agency to find top management ositions. They usually work on a retainer though and not an up front fee. And they won’t be in business long if they dont recruit the type of employee requested.
I have never seen any agency attack their clients and release personal information like this person did. In fact the personal information is misinformation and demonstrates their unwortiness to be in business and shows their only interest in the transaction was self interest.
“Having their hand caught inn ther cookie jar” they are angry about being exposed.
As an aside, note the criticism of Kat for not writing “under her real name” I didn’t see this writer’s real name unles it was not included in Kat’s quote.
So JL Kirk bought th assets of a company which was under a huge cloud and assumed their debts. Why?
What was worth that kind of money? Certainly it was not good will. It was most likely a “system” or the idea how to run the business which was discredited already. For this they want us to think they are heroes?
You are such an evil person-the devil. I think you hurt her feelings.
I think you hurt her feelings.
I think you’re right.
And I never intended to. The original quote about her office never says anything about it being “tacky”.
The only reason I even included detail about the office was because when I read the entries about the company on Ripoff Report Dot Com, the JL Kirk rebuttal was generally to say that the person had either never gone through the full interview process or been in the office.
I figured the best way to prove I’d been in the office was to be able to describe the office in great detail. And obviously they aren’t willing to now say that I had never been in the office.
Hi Kat,
JL Kirk’s Brentwood office has a pretty ugly Better Business Bureau reliability report:
JL Kirk Brentwood Office BBB Report
What is even weirder to me is not so much that Kirk’s Brookfield, WI office received an ‘unsatisfactory’ rating from the BBB, but rather that the report contains the following text:
Bernard Haldane Associates DOES NOT function as an employment agency. According to information supplied by the company, it works with individuals to provide counseling, direction and marketing support to reach job and career objectives.
This firm has an affiliation with other Bernard Haldane Associates in other cities, but each office is individually owned and operated.
Bernard Haldane Associate’s home office is at 311 W. Wisconsin Avenue Oconomowoc Wisconsin.
Do you find those references to Bernard Haldane, after your contact went to such lengths to distance her beloved boss from that other train wreck of an ‘organization,’ to be somewhat strange?
The lady doth protest far far far far far too much.
These things are scams, big time.
Her defense is full of B.S. but let me quickly discuss the bit about placement agency commissions, to wit:
“Head hunters, recruiters, and employment agencies are commissioned sales organizations. Their commission is generally 20-40% of first year gross income. Commonly, the employer will write the check. However, ONLY at the very highest levels of employment (CEO, President, COO, CFO, etc.) does the company actually PAY for the service. For those below this level, the employee typically pays for the placement in a reduction of salary. Sadly, this reduced salary is compounded annually and the cost of placement assistance becomes astronomical beyond the initial commission. Apparently Mrs. Coble and her band of blind followers find no fault with the aforementioned company types WHO GET PAID.”
That’s just crap. It is a common practice for companies to pay this “commission” for all sorts of positions well below “the very highest levels of employment.” Basically, it works like this: Company contacts Agency and says it needs, say, a Quality Control Specialist. Agency provides some worthwhile candidates. Company picks one at an annual salary of $50,000 (or whatever he or she negotiates). Agency’s commission is 20% of the salary at hire. New Quality Control Specialist gets $50,000 in salary and Agency gets $10,000–one-time,. flat, straight up. Notice the difference: the Agency doesn’t get paid until it actually does something worth getting paid for.
JL Kirk, BH and all those others are scams, pure and simple, and, quite frankly, hanging from tree limbs by their thumbs would be too good for them. They prey on the insecurities of good, productive people in worrisome circumstances. In short, 21st century flimflam men.
If Peace Quilt Woman has an issue with anything I’ve written, she’s perfectly welcome to contact me and state her case. Email: rogertn AT comcast-dot-net . I’ll give her my phone number too, if she wants it. Be advised though, I know whereof I speak: employment lawyer with a professional certification in human respources, not to mention a lot of direct, hands-on experience with this sort of thing. How she sleeps at night, I have no idea, but she’s the one with the problem, not the Cobles.
Roger,
What the law on breaking confidentiality in a situation like this or am I barking up the wrong tree?
Newscoma –
Honestly, if there isn’t any written confidentiality agreement between the Cobles and these people, I would suggest that there probably isn’t any. Plus, Kat sort of “opened the door” on a lot of these things anyway in her original post, and, furthermore, even if there was one (perhaps implied?), she’s waived it by posting the thing in full on her own Web site.
Now, is it good business to do that sort of thing? Would someone want to do business with someone who would do that? No on both counts, which is, I suspect, the main reason Kat posted it so prominently.
Roger–
Thanks. That’s sort of what I assumed.
The bad part is that the “confidential” information she posted wasn’t even remotely accurate. As any reader of the blog can attest.
And thanks as always for your legal perspective. I’m so glad one of us sat through law school….
Kat –
No problem. It might be useful, though, for your (and yours) own good to somehow point out/highlight to the reader what’s not truthful. Don’t assume everyone knows. Remember, unless you take it down, it’s up forever and new readers will come across it, and, frankly, they might assume that by your posting it you’re endorsing some or all of the allegations PQW is making.
While we’re at it, may as well state for the public good:
Not nearly as much stuff think we think should be “confidential” actually is.
The old line about three people keeping a secret if two of them are dead is a good one to remember.
Yeah, I’m in the process of changing this entry, because you and my dad and sister all make good points about not letting the errors stand unchallenged.
As far as confidentiality goes, I never once assumed we had any with them. Which is why I didn’t go into all the details about my business. I figured I wasn’t there to make my life an open book to a perfect stranger.
Ironic, since my life is largely an open book over here. Yet the book is always open to the pages of MY choosing. ;-p
Even if there was no true LEGAL confidentiality breach, the Kirk person’s statements were still HIGHLY inappropriate in every sense of the word.
Lynnster –
Very much so.
Inappropriate all the way around.
Thanks for answering my question, Roger and in much agreement with Lynnster.
I looked back at this and I didn’t mean you Kat.
Sorry if it came out that way.
[...] I think there may be some matronly regret [...]
NC: I didn’t take it that you meant me. Although if you had, it would have been okay.
I do feel bad that the lady inferred criticism of her office from what was meant to be a general description. Although being eccentric myself I don’t consider that to be the bad descriptor that many other folk do.
Katherine,
I’m hopped up on drugs at Chez Coma and do not know my own mind.
I saw that and reacted.
I have had such issue with local “employment” agencies and their power is amazing.
This is, in some respects, a personal thing with me because I deal with these kind of folks everyday.
I’ll tell you about it next time I see you.
Hey, if anyone understands the negatory of being hopped up on drugs, that’d be me. ;-p
Funny, but before she was in Nashville, this particular woman had a job with the same type of “employment” mill out in Memphis. In fact, when I googled her name, it linked me back to Voyager Career Services, formerly of Memphis. This associate was quoted as working out of the (now defunct) Memphis office.
Of course, after you visit Voyager Career’s website, hop on over to JL Kirk Associates website and TELL ME they aren’t related. Cut out of the same mold. Using the same web mill.
And tell me further why they operate under different names in different parts of the country if they AREN’T up to something shady.
And yes, I look forward to there being a next time we see one another in person. Hopefully you’ll be at Mack’s Table on 4/20+1. ;-p
Rawk on. This is what the internets are good for.
[...] Subject of initial blog entry leaves long comment on said post defending herself and her [...]
[...] posted the comment along with her response (she has recently moved from Blogger to WordPress), including notes as to which of the Kirk [...]
KC, this is so wrong. Stand your ground!
Kat - very eye-opening, very brave of you. Thanks for the public service. You rock.
And to any JL Kirk folks reading this, the battle was lost the second your staff posted what anyone would consider sensitive personal information about a (prospective) customer in a public forum.
I’d absolutely lose my job if I did that.
An apology is owed, but I expect a change in philosophy, mission and name on the door is more likely.
[...] experience and went on with her life. A month or two later, an employee from the outfit wrote a hectoring comment on her blog post, which the host brought to the front page. This screedwriter attempted to embarass [...]
I left a note on your old blog before seeing the link to this one.
I got here by following links from Instapundit. A whole lot of people are seeing this.
I had a couple of things to say, first, good luck to Husband with the job search. There isn’t much else more emotionally draining. Hang in there.
Your descriptive writing is exceptional.
The Support Person requirement was bizarre, until I got to the payment part. People doing a hard sell never *ever* want someone to “go home and talk it over with my spouse” because time means a clearer head. The answer will be “no.”
I have never *ever* been part of my husband’s employment search process.
This seems very like literary agent scams. Reputable agents are paid when a sale is made. Agents or publishers who want money from the author are likely running a scam. Writers told that “this is how it works if you want to get published” are being lied to, but they don’t know that and it seems reasonable on the surface so they fall for it.
Even the “same company by new names” sounds like literary agent scams.
The only defense people have is to get the information out there so people *know* that this (payment up front with no promise of delivering results) is a highly questionable business model.
If they had nothing to defend, that was one very very very long letter… whew…. and rather nasty - not at all ‘defensive in tone’ nor accusitory nor did it, as it has been mentioned reveal details that should have not been revealed.
Kind of guys that you shake hands with and then want to immediately find a sink or some purell. Egads.. just sorry you had to deal w/ them. It will all go away, these people do slink away eventually.
I have used a number of search firms back in the day before monster & etc. None of them behaved anything like these people you met. None. Not one. Your description of the interview and the reply you received from “eccentric grandmother” set off more alarm bells than I have time to enumerate. Not at all professional. If I met people like that I would warn all my friends to stay far, far away.
You have a pretty good case of defamation going here.
Remember, you’re a private person, in the eyes of the law (as opposed to a “public figure.”
The response that JL Scam & Crooks published on the internet (here on your blog) is blatantly defamatory, probably violates Tennesee privacy laws, and is in horrible taste to say the least.
Your lawyer should have a good time emptying their pockets for you.
[...] Katherine Coble had a bad experience with JL Kirk and Associates and posted about it on her blog. JL Kirk Associates responded with a long comment filled with inaccuracies and outright lies about [...]
It’s Not The Crime It’s The Coverup
The Instapundit reports that a recruitment company called JL Kirk is upset with a blogger who thought they were more likely to con job-seekers out of money than get them a new job that they have called in Messrs Sue Grabbit & Runne. Now not being a T…
[...] in a fit of pissyness, the “quilt lady” responded to kat with a fairly heated letter. kat, being a blogger, posted the letter in it’s entirety on her blog (free of personal comment), allowing the j.k. kirk employee in question a chance to air her rebuttal in the same forum. she has since, on the urging of the bloggosphere, added notes and annotations to the post. read it here. [...]
You’ve been greenlighted on Fark.com.
Congratulations. Although they have a different link.
I love this post ‘J.L. Kirk’ responds; it is SO obvious that this post was written with either direct input of Kirk’s attorneys or their direct approval. Who, except for lawyers, creates the type of lengthy post which features such words as ‘herein’, ‘aforementioned’, ‘liabilities’, ‘compensation’, etc…?
Priceless. Just Priceless.
Goodbye J.L. Kirk (et. al.)
I’ve read both Kat’s post and the Kirk Associates response. Guess what I discovered. Everyone in here is so stuck up each other’s ass congratulating each other that they can’t admit to themselves, that lady had many good points.
Every snarky comment you made she refuted and in some cases made Kat look like an insensitive cunt. The fact you were talking shit about her decorations and then it turns the quilt is from a charity auction to help victims of 9/11. Hilarious! What have you done to better mankind? Make long winded rants about services you won’t be using? Move over Consumer Affairs we’ve got a blogger about to steal your thunder.
What’s very shitty about this entire situation is that Kat didn’t say any of this to the lady’s face. Instead she acted like a coward and posted about it where her friends would all be there to agree with it. If she had the back bone to say half of this stuff maybe she wouldn’t have left feeling the way she did. Instead she came in with bias, saw only what fit her bias and left feeling right “as usual”.
It’s so typical to bash the “mindless corporate zombies”. Most of us have a little bias against authority figures. That doesn’t make it rational. It’s paranoia and Kat showed plenty of it in her first post.
I actually felt sorry for that Associate lady. It’s one thing to bash a company but to personally attack her sense of style over her decorations. What does that have to do with anything? It’s just backstabbing mindless gossip. You have embarrassed yourself and I hope that if the Associate from Kirk reads this she will know that not everyone on the Internet subscribes to mob mentality. Not all of us are anti-corporate. In fact none of us are, we just pretend to be until our SUV runs out of gas or we need another Mountain Dew or Wendy’s hamburger.
As for the rest of you get over yourselves… you are not crusaders. You are not making the world a better place. You’re wasting time and acting like morons. Then again, that seems to be a prerequisite for having a blog these days. You’ve done nothing to make a difference in JLK-A activities. You’ve cost them a couple of clients and showed what huge windbags you all are. Congratulations! Everybody loses!
[...] formerly Bernard Haldane. An associate at the employment agency responded to the blog post. The blogger reposted the employment agent’s comment as its own post, also including a rebuttal. Yesterday the blogger received a certified letter from [...]
Well said, Afecks. Especially using the “C” word. That really helps make your point.
Until you are completely innocent of anything you’ve listed in your own post, you have nothing to stand on. Ye without sin…
Kat is performing a public service against a company that could very well take the last money out of a struggling family’s hands in the hopes of a job, without any guarantees — just hype.
Wow! 50 supportive comments and then one foul-mouthed support of the quilt lady. Pretty much shorthands each side, don’t you think?
So. many. words.
ohhh, a troll…surprised it took so long to get one out from under a bridge and over here. I love when someone attacks people for exchanging information then goes right ahead and preforms the same type of “service” being attacked by them, pot meet kettle.
Props Afecks, I find your charming use of explative to be both stimulating and assertive, clearly the post of a thoughtful and intellectual individual. It might fascinate you to know that I stopped reading your text at the first derogatory adjective. Here’s a clue - if you want people to take you seriously maybe you need to show some maturity in how you communicate ok?
KC, our blog has linked to yours in support. Blog-on. You’ve admirably demonstrated the power of information in this millennia.
-u
I’m hoping that Afecks was being facetious, but in case he’s actually serious about his stance, I feel that I must point out one thing: Kat neither mentioned nor attacked the quilt in her original post. The Kirk employee brought it up, in what was IN MY HUMBLE OPINION an attempt to drum up sympathy for her very weak arguments. The rest of your diatribe, I’ll leave to the others to handle.
Well, after reading the post and all the comments (especially the one right above this one), I’d have to say - Keep up the good work Mrs. Coble! I’m right there with you. It is very apparent that J.L. Kirk is a scam, and I hope they go out of business over what they’re trying to do to people. I hope everyone will live by the advice our State Auditor has given us after Hurricane Katrina: “If anyone asks to be paid up front, simply do not hire them.” How true! A company of good reputation will not mind waiting until after the job is complete to be paid. God bless you and your husband.
And by (especially the one right above this one) I meant Afeck’s post. He must be a minion of J.L. Kirk!
Beware of J.L. Kirk
I just want to let you all know to beware of J.L. Kirk and Associates. Go here to read why.
I’m no minion just someone that knows the difference between holding a grudge and advocating free speech and consumer rights. I’m sorry that I don’t meld well with the groupthink hive. I apologize for forming my own opinion and I will try harder to stop thinking for myself.
As for those of you complaining about my choice of words you are only showing yourselves for what you are. You don’t care about freedom of speech, you care about freedom of YOUR speech. If some words offend you well then those don’t deserve protection.
Hypocrites.
Wow Affecks. Why so much anger is your tone? It is as if this post is directly isulting you. I am guessing it is. Very classy Affecks…or should I say “Quilt Lady.”
I really enjoyed how she started off with telling everyone not to believe everything they read on the internet and then ends with advising everyone to Google the author to find out what sort of person she really is.
I didn’t make it through all the defensive stuff in the middle.
Who I am doesn’t matter because it doesn’t change the facts. Nice “ad hominem” argument though. Any more logical fallacies to throw my way?
There is no anger in my tone. It’s disgust. I am disgusted by my fellow humans. I am disgusted with how many sheep jump on the anti-corporate bandwagon. None of you consider the side of JLK because you don’t want to.
“They have money so therefore they are obviously in the wrong. Down with The Man!”
JLK may very well be scammers but not in this case. Kat wasn’t dealing with a faceless company. That so-called “quilt lady” has feelings too and she was doing her job which was to try and help this woman and her husband find a job. All Kat did to repay her was post insulting and rude comments on her blog and tell everyone not to use their services. Then when confronted with the truth of her actions Kat won’t own up to them and say that what she did was childish and wrong.
As for calling her the “quilt lady”, I would rather be known for buying a charity item to support the victims of 9/11 than to be known for making sarcastic posts about it. Rip JLK apart all you want, but the “quilt lady” is a saint compared to you people.
Of course if I disagree with you I must have an agenda. You couldn’t possibly wrong could you? Nah, not even worth considering.
Afecks,
You’re really going off the deep end if you’re calling Kat anti-corporate. This has nothing to do with being anti-corporate or pro-corporate, this is about one family who had a very bad experience with one company (an experience apparently shared by others considering the massive influx of complaints about this company the BBB receives). The fact that you’re trying to frame this as an anti-corporate issue suggests to me that for all you’re talk of thinking for yourself, you have simply stumbled across a topic and without bothering to actually read up on the situation (as is clear by the fact that you got several facts wrong in your initial comment), you’ve resorted to the tired old rhetoric that you’ve been told to fall back on by the people you let think for you.
This isn’t group-think. If you were familiar with the names in the several 100 comments addressing this topic on this blog alone, you’d know that many of these commenters VEHEMENTLY disagree with each other and any number of other topics. The reason most everyone agrees on this particular topic is because most rational people find it wrong for a company to try and take advantage of someone and when that person doesn’t bite, for that company to verbally attack and spread lies about that individual, and then threaten a lawsuit to have what amounts to a negative review forcibly removed. It’s not group-think, but common human decency allows most people to recognize that that is wrong.
Lastly, nobody here has threatened your free speech or been a hypocrite in anyway. People have given you advice (that you ought to welcome) about how you might go about being more persuasive in your views. You’re foul comment have not been deleted, nor has Kat (or anybody else) threatened to sue you over it. Freedom of speech works both ways, you have the freedom to use whatever language you want (though Kat would be within her rights to remove such language from this blog, her private property, if she chose to). Other people have the freedom of speech to tell you that you’re a moron.
Errr, ‘Affecks’, could you please stop astroturfing and actually read the responses that Kat had to the Associate lady’s vitriol. Oh, and exposing poor customer service (as you would have been able to observe, had you taken your self-righteous stick out of your ass) is improving the world - your post most certainly does not.
‘Afecks’,
‘cunt’ … ‘groupthink hive’ … ‘hypocrites’.
‘Nice “ad hominem” argument though. Any more logical fallacies to throw my way?’
Try looking up the phrase in the previous sentence, sparky; the gods of irony are looking up your address for a bitch-slapping.
may I point out that the “grandma” proves in her own post.
Our business model provides that we are able to grant services to approximately 225-250 clients per year. A scam would know no limits as to the number of clients per year - as the goal would be to reap as many fees as possible.
Head hunters, recruiters, and employment agencies are commissioned sales organizations. Their commission is generally 20-40% of first year gross income. Commonly, the employer will write the check
let me use the questionable number of Mr. Coble’s $20,000 salary.
20% of $20,000 is $4,000
$4,000 x 225 clients a year = $ 900,000
I’m in the wrong line of work.
If it looks like a Duck, quacks like a Duck, and wadles like a Duck.
its a scam
TVFOH
The View From Out Here
Kudos to you, dolphin!
(mmmmmmmmm………mahi-mahi)
(and before anyone responds: yes, I know mahi-mahi is not actually dolphin meat.)
Whois Information for voyagercareers.com and jlkirkassociates.com:
voyagercareers.com (registered via networksolutions.com):
Registrant:
Voyager Career Services
680 Craig Road Suite 400
ST Louis, MO 63141
US
Domain Name: VOYAGERCAREERS.COM
Administrative Contact :
Ludmer, Alan
alanl@haldanestl.com
680 Craig Road Suite 400
ST Louis, MO 63141
US
Phone: 314-991-5444
Technical Contact :
Network Solutions, LLC.
customerservice@networksolutions.com
13861 Sunrise Valley Drive
Herndon, VA 20171
US
Phone: 1-888-642-9675
Fax: 571-434-4620
Record expires on 22-Apr-2009
Record created on 22-Apr-2004
Database last updated on 20-Mar-2007
jlkirkassociates.com (registered via tucows.com’s domainsdirect service):
Registrant:
JL Kirk & Associates
14225 University Avenue
Suite 130
Waukee, IA 50263
US
Domain name: JLKIRKASSOCIATES.COM
Administrative Contact:
Jack, Captain captain@captainjack.com
2866 NW 82nd Avenue
Ankeny, IA 50021
US
+1.5159648500
Technical Contact:
Clifton, Anthony clifton@captainjack.com
2866 NW 82nd Ave
Ankeny, IA 50021
US
+1.5159648500
Registration Service Provider:
Captain Jack Communications, captain@captainjack.com
515-964-8500
This company may be contacted for domain login/passwords,
DNS/Nameserver changes, and general domain support questions.
Registrar of Record: TUCOWS, INC.
Record last updated on 11-Dec-2006.
Record expires on 02-Jun-2008.
Record created on 02-Jun-2004.
Although the websites were built (supposedly) by the same web creation service, the underlying domain records don’t appear to be related. Although the voyagercareers.com administrative contact looks like it is using a Haldan email address.
Smells very fishy to me. Your quilt woman used to work for Voyager, which is associated with Haldan (via the admin contact), so by logic, she would have something to do with Haldan. Doesn’t she deny this link in her post?
Regards, and keep fighting the good fight.
“specific rug (which really tied the room together)”
Oh man, that reference makes me want to make sweet, hot, monkey love to my monitor right now.
But that’s just, like, my opinion, man.
(That was a joke, not a weird threat, please don’t send the police to my house to discuss hot monkey love on blogs.)
Affecks,
Maybe a little more comprehension in your reading would give you more insight. Your statement:
“The fact you were talking shit about her decorations and then it turns the quilt is from a charity auction to help victims of 9/11. Hilarious!”
I don’t recall Kat saying any derogatory remarks about the Quilt, did you read the original blog? Here is the pargraph:
We were led into an office that appeared to have been the result of a decorating war between a loan officer and an eccentric grandmother. The prototypical office furniture clashed with a giant print of Raffael’s Cherubs a reproduction oriental rug and a handmade mosaic table with a tilted top. The Husband and I were seated in two chairs across from the interviewer, who sat on a sofa next to a pile of throw pillows.
I see no mention of a quilt, do you? Maybe I’m blind or I need more comprehension skills, who knows. My point is get the facts before you ramble off an ill conceived comment.
Just my two cents.
I can’t stop laughing! Kat - I truly sympathize with you, and I’m impressed with your courage in being public about these scam artists.
As for the con men - and yeah, that’s what you are - just how stupid are you?
Did you REALLY use phrase “ad nausea” (sic) right in the middle of multi-thousand word blather fest? Seriously? Without a hint of irony?
Bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha
And the joke gets better! That hateful, infantile response, so utterly unprofessional, just gave you national - no, worldwide - exposure as being complete incompetents at best and criminals at worst.
I freaking LIVE in Nashville and WORK in Maryland Farms and I’d never heard of you until today. But thanks to your absolute lack of intellect and amazingly poor judgment, I found a write-up on a polical blog … and followed the links to countless other blogs … all mocking YOU!
So … was that your intent, genius? I think my favorite part is that the loony left and wingnut right blog, who usually hate each other, all seem to happily agree that you and your company are the biggest douches in the universe.
Well done! Well done! Bravo!
I really am sorry for your troubles, Kat … but I think you found justice. And you certainly gave me a laugh that’s going to laugh for years.
What poetic justice. I love it!
Ha! Afecks has a listing over at Digg, lamenting that “Digg Censors Stories That Offend Sponsors”
Pot, meet kettle.
http://www.digg.com/users/Afecks/news/dugg
Personal experience, to refute the nonsence from this JLK shill.
Last time I went job hunting, I answered a blind ad for a position that looked like an excellent match for my experience, skills and location, A recruiter responded and we had a screening interview over the phone (we were on opposite coasts) where we discussed my resume, experience and objectives, as well as the specific requirements of the position, and a little about the employer. The recruiter forwarded this information on to the client, who scheduled an initial interview, plus a followup interview. The recruiter made it clear that the fee was paid by the employer, not by me, and only upon a successful placement. I was offered a position with the company, which I accepted.
To refute the points made by this person:
The recruiter was paid a percentage of my gross salary (I believe 20%) on the six month anniversary of my hire date. So, the recruiter has a substantial incentive to screen and send only candidates who are likely to be hired, and to stay in the position, or the recruiter earns nothing. I know this because I was involved in recruiting and interviewing candidates for another position in the company, and the recruiter’s terms were discussed as we evaluated the pros and cons of advertising directly or through the recruiter.
At no time during the interview and hiring process was I asked by the recruiter or anyone else about my marital status (it would have been illegal), nor was I discouraged from taking the time I needed to evaluate the offer and make a decision.
At no time was I pressured to take the offer, nor was I told that mine would be a “difficult” placement because of my own job history, my age, my gender, my appearance, my interview skills, my “extraneous” education, or anything else. It was a very positive, professional experience all the way.
I was never asked to pay anything, either up front to the recruiter, nor to the company in the form of a salary reduction. The recruiter makes his living on commissions based on successful placements, and on repeat business from satisfied clients.
The salary and benefits I was offered were competitive, in fact better than the going rate for my skills and experience level in this area, which is a very tight job market overall with a largely unskilled labor force. In other words, it is as difficult to find people with the skill set needed to fill positions in our company as it is to find these kinds of positions in this area.
I am definitely not a high level employee. I am not a manager or even a supervisor, and definitely not at VP level — I am a skilled professional with a salary in the middle to high range for my title and definitely above average for my area, but apart for that I’m nothing special; the company recruits this way for most of its technical and professional positions.
I understand how agencies (job shops, temping, etc.) work, by the way as I’ve worked for some, although this wasn’t directly mentioned — the agency pays the worker an agreed amount, which is different from the amount they bill the client (obviously). The agency provides the worker with temp or contract placements, benefits, and the comfort of handling all the billing, deductions and payroll so the worker doesn’t need to spend time on invoicing and collecting from clients. They earn their money and it’s a good working relationship for those who choose to work this way.
So, none of the “facts” of recruiting touted by this person turn out to be true, in my case at least, and for anyone else who has dealt with the particular recruiter I used. I think it would be fair to extrapolate my experience to the legitimate end of the recruiting business as a whole, and that any recruiters that charge fees to the applicant, take on applicants who by the recruiter’s own evaluation are difficult to place, or who otherwise use hard sell tactics, are most likely scams.
This whole “employment agency” scheme reminds me of those bogus literary agencies that demand “reading fees” and “office expenses” from aspiring writers, then channel their victims to expensive editing or “book doctor” services with dubious credentials, and then offer expensive contracts with vanity publishers (sometimes disguised as “joint ventures” in which the publisher risks none of their own money and in fact reaps a handsome profit from the victim). Scam agents, book doctors and vanity publishers (who more often than not are part of the same company or even the same person with multiple fake names) make all the money they need from gullible wannabe writers, and have neither the skills, the industry contacts, nor the economic motivation to market a writer’s work profitably for anyone but the scammer.
Arg, her letter is such complete and utter bullshit.
I would never ever ever go to any job interview where I was asked to bring along my spouse. And I would immediately leave any interview in which I was asked about “problems at home” or “my baby’s daddy” or any other such nonsense. Maybe someone should tell this ninny that people have personal lives and that they oftentimes prefer to keep those lives personal?
Afleck,
Your comments about the legitimacy of the afforementioned business and poor crazy cat lady… er, I mean quilt lady are duely noted, however, before I can address your comments, I will need you to send me your previous year’s tax return so I can help you.
If you work for a company that specializes in scamming people for a living, you are, professionally, a scammer. People who cheat other people out of money, specially when those people are experiancing dire circumstances and are vulnerable deserve no quarter. quilt lady can spend all the money she wants on 9-11 relief, she can feed homeless people, but it still doensn’t make her a good person if she goes to work each day trying to frighten unemployed people in to depleting their already stressed cash supply. She’s a rotten human being, and defending her doesn’t buy you much sympathy either.
Just a note:
This whole thing is great.
The same thing (except for the blog-post/lawsuit) happened to me - and I mean, right down to the spouse-attended meeting, ‘most jobs never get posted’, ‘we-will-network-and-teach-you-to-get-a-job’ - the whole routine.
The price tag we shook hands and said ‘goodbye’ over was more like $5,200 or somesuch.
RMC International - http://www.rmcijobs.com/
Why would anyone go with a company with NO vested interest in YOUR success? With their system, they get paid no matter what happens.
- MuscleDaddy
And am I the only one laughing at Afecks?
It’s some delicious irony that he’s a textbook example of group-think in action, while lashing out with that very same insult.
A classic hypocrite calling others hypocrites. Wonderful! And the resorting to the most degradingly sexist vulgarity is such a perfect example of the hive from which he buzzed. That he fell back on freedom of speech as a defense is even more predicatable.
Priceless.
Disgusted with his fellow humans … as he’s being disgusting.
Denouncing ad hominem arguments … while he’s the first person in the thread to, well, level an adhominem attack.
I repeat: priceless. If you look up “projection” in a dictionary, I suspect you’ll find his picture. Classic self-loathing.
Thank you, Afecks. You are a classic groupthink echo-chamber zombie, incapable of independent critical thought, absolutely controlled by your prejudices, and - considering you just called a family seeking a job in corporate America “anti-corporate” - you’re also borderline illiterate.
In short, you’re an asshat of epic proportions. This, by the way, is what an ad hominem looks like. Since you were a tad confused earlier.
Do you have a PayPal account or something? Because I usually pay good money for the kind of entertainment you’re providing, and I almost feel guilty getting it for free, you monument to all things asshattish.
Well done! More projection! Encore! Encore!
One major untruth in this response by JL Kirk says it all about the firm’s motives:
“However, ONLY at the very highest levels of employment (CEO, President, COO, CFO, etc.) does the company actually PAY for the service. For those below this level, the employee typically pays for the placement in a reduction of salary.”
This is simply not the case.
For example, in the IT world, in which I work, finding and hiring qualified talent is very challenging and competitive. Many (most?) IT jobs that are professional/technical in nature (programmer, technical writer, consultant, engineer, etc., NOT just CxO-level jobs) that are placed through third-party recruiters have fees paid BY THE EMPLOYER.
Salaries for IT hires are in no way reduced by commissions to the recruiters; the commissions are one-time fees, and hired candidates don’t get a compensating salary increase the year after the commission is paid. That is because the commission DOES NOT COME OUT OF THE SALARY.
And some recruiters even work on flat fees or retainers paid by employers, so the salary obtained by a hired candidate plays no role in the recruiter’s fees.
Not every field will have a market for talent in which employers pay recruiter fees.
But given the state of mind and finances of people who have been laid off from jobs, high-pressure scare tactics to collect candidate-paid recruiting fees seems, to me, to be highly unethical.
One curious question remains: Would JL Kirk accept any clients who are are NOT married or with significant other?
I have gone on many interviews in my career, done by both employers and recruiters. NOT ONCE was I even asked about bringing a spouse or significant other. I do know that candidates about be extended CxO-level offers are sometimes asked to have a social meeting (e.g. dinner, etc.) with other decision makers as a final step.
But I was under the impression that it is illegal to even ask about marital status in an employment interview or any any conversation relating to potential employment.
The only purpose that I can see that to bringing a spouse to such situations is to put added pressure on potential “clients” (”Don’t you want to get a job so our family can eat?”
and to avoid the “I have to ask my spouse about the fee” objection.
Does anybody get the impression that JL Kirk’s “counselors” have been selling time-share vacations before going into the recruiting business?
Just a quick responce to JL Kirk’s comment on employee paid fees:
“For those below this level, the employee typically pays for the placement in a reduction of salary. Sadly, this reduced salary is compounded annually and the cost of placement assistance becomes astronomical beyond the initial commission.”
I will say that I am currently working in an industry where there are a lot of employees who were placed by recruiting firms. The employer paid for these fees 100%. I was actually not placed by a recruiter, but responded to an online job posting placed directly by the employer. I will say that I do NOT make more than my co-workers who used recruiters. I may have come cheaper to the employee, but I didn’t get paid the difference…nor do the recruiter-placed employees have to pay the difference through a salary reduction because of the placement fees. This is absolute bullshit!
Finders fees are part of buisiness are built in to the budgets of many companies. They do not need to cut salaries to make up for them. A very big picture approach may show that salaries are slightly lower over all because of expenses involved in the employee acquisition process. (These are not just recruiter fees, but training development expenses as well). To think that paying fees up front will get you a higher salary is just silly because they are not reducing salaries on a per diem bases anyways. The job pays what it pays for the most part. The fees are anticipated and even expected as part of the process. If they don’t have to pay them, then great, higher profits!
If a Wal-Mart supplier decides to lower the prices it is charging, does Wal-Mart in turn lower its prices as well? Hell no! A bigger margin is always welcome. They were already prepared to spend the normal rate. Now that the rate is lower, they get to keep more dough with no impact on relationships or sales. It just makes sense, doesn’t it? Maybe its just me.
Hmmm… I think Afecks has a blog… http://fuckallbloggers.com/
Class act!
Ha! Hahaha!
Late to the party, but dealing with a similar situation–truths told on the internet leading to threats of legal action.
“olish her grammar and punctuation skills. I make no apology for my skill (or lack of) as I never intend to make a living as a writer.”
Writing advice from an adherent of free range punctuation! I love it!
Afecks is a well known troll on the Fark.com news site.
He’s just playing the same game here for your amusement.
First, I have to say that I am NOT giving you legal advise, and I am NOT authorized to practice law in your jurisdiction. The following is for purposes of discussion only.
Having said that, as a purely hypothetical and academic matter, people could discuss whether one in your position may (or may not) have claims against “Eccentric Matronly Grandmother” and her employer for: (1) Invasion of Privacy — Publication of Private Facts; (2) Breach of Contract; (3) Breach of the Implied Covenant of Good Faith and Fair Dealing; (4) Breach of Fiduciary Duty; or (5) other claims.
It may be that your husband submitted his and your private information to JL Kirk & Associates pursuant to an express, implied in fact and/or implied in law promise not to disclose the information unless your husband entered into a subsequent contract for their services and: (a) your husband authorized disclosure of the information; and/or (b) said disclosure was for the legitimate purpose of helping your husband obtain a suitable job.
Who knows? Perhaps there are some nice statutory claims available under state law. (Again, I don’t practice law in your jurisdiction.)
This could be such a fun discussion. Just like a law school hypothetical.
I’d just like to say that you people responding to my “ad hominem” comment obviously have no idea what that phrase means.
Here are two examples.
“You are an asshole.”
“You are an asshole, so you must be wrong.”
Do you see the difference now? It’s really simple. The first one is similar to what I said. I called someone a cunt and many others hypocrites. However this is not an “ad hominem” attack. Simply insulting someone is not a logical fallacy. Questioning their motives or implying that they are a corporate shill is however.
I’m really disappointed that I had to explain this.
P.S. Yes, this is Afecks, deal with it.
FYI: Ad Hominem
“there are some cases when it is not really a fallacy, such as when one needs to evaluate the truth of factual statements (as opposed to lines of argument or statements of value) made by interested parties. If someone has an incentive to lie about something, then it would be naive to accept his statements about that subject without question.”
From:
http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html#Argumentum%20ad%20hominem
(From CSU professor Glen Whitman’s page “Logical Fallacies and the Art of Debate”
This position is also supported here:
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/personalattack.html
“It is important to note that the label “ad hominem” is ambiguous, and that not every kind of ad hominem argument is fallacious. ”
Fallacious use of fallacies? This is the best internets ever.
The key phrase is “incentive to lie”.
What incentive do I have and what am I lying about? That’s quite a stretch, please back it up.
No. “incentive to lie” was an example.
An Ad Hominem is not a logical fallacy when the logical test is being applied to the character of a person and how that character trait relates to the argument at hand.
Ex. A question is raised about the health of kittens with pink fur. A man claiming to be an expert on kittens declares that all kittens with pink fur should be killed.
Ad Hominem Fallacy: To say that the Kitten Expert should be ignored because he cheats on his wife and is not a good person.
Ad Hominem Non-Fallacy: To say that the man is abusive to animals and his arguments should therefore be discredited.
In both examples the case could be made that Kitten Expert is not a “good person”. In the case of the adultery, the fact that he likes women other than his wife has nothing to do with what he knows about Kittens or any vested interest he may have in issues surrounding Pink Kittens.
In the case of the animal abuse the fact that he has a track record of harming otherwise healthy animals goes directly to the validity of his assertions that the Pink Kittens should be killed. Clearly he likes to harm animals and his advice should therefore be disregarded.
In your case, I think people think you have a vested interest in trolling or being crassly contrary or whatever it is that you do, so they are just pointing out the fact that your behaviour is consistent with trolling.
It may be Ad Hominem, but it is not Ad Hominem Fallacy.
If I have “a vested interest in trolling” then everyone here has “a v